C&R Question posed to the ATF

[elric]

You are only required to enter a C&R in your bound book if you acquire it AFTER you get your C&R FFL. If you haven't acquired it as a C&R, then you can't dispose of it as a C&R.

Hmmm, but how does ATF know when I acquired it? Did I acquire it in 1993 before it was a C&R, or 2008 after it became one?

If they audit me in 2009 and notice I have a C&R eligible firearm that's not in the book, is the burden of proof on me or on them to prove when I got it?

 

[knuckles]

Hmmm, but how does ATF know when I acquired it? Did I acquire it in 1993 before it was a C&R, or 2008 after it became one?

If they audit me in 2009 and notice I have a C&R eligible firearm that's not in the book, is the burden of proof on me or on them to prove when I got it?

Well, I guess the general idea is that there should be a reciprocating record with the dealer you purchased the C&R from (or weapon that wasn't previously C&R but which is now with the passing of time). If you claimed that you had the C&R eligible firearm before you had your license, and they found an entry in a dealers book that said otherwise, you'd be in trouble. However, the chances of them being able to find something like that would be minimal. They would most likely have to be looking for a particular firearm to uncover such an inconsistancy in record keeping across current and previous owners. Of course this doesn't cover private party deals, but I digress...

All in all I think it comes down to what a few have said here before: you aren't going to be audited. It's my belief that even if you are and you have made an honest best effort to keep your book up to date, you'll probably be fine.

 

[Lone_Gunman]

Hmmm, but how does ATF know when I acquired it? Did I acquire it in 1993 before it was a C&R, or 2008 after it became one?

All they have to do is ask you. Lying to a federal agent is probably not a good idea.

It is not a big deal to log your guns. Just log them and forget about it. No one has ever heard of a C&R holder get audited. Its possible, but it appears the ATF is busy doing other things.

If you ever fail to renew your C&R, this all becomes moot, because you don't have to keep your book or turn it in.

 

[Dr. Dickie]

I have a follow up question.
I have about 7 or 8 rifles that qualify as C&R (all purchased well before I got my C&R). If I sell one, do I log the sale in the book (since the purchase was not logged in there). I don't plan on selling any, but just curious.

 

[Car Knocker]

No, because it wasn't acquired while you had your C&R.

 

[gezzer]

You are only required to enter a C&R in your bound book if you acquire it AFTER you get your C&R FFL. If you haven't acquired it as a C&R, then you can't dispose of it as a C&R.

Wrong, if it is a C&R when you got it has nothing to do with how you dispose it. It goes in your log book if you aquired it with the license. You may dispose of any C&R you own. If you are more comfortable shipping it book it into your log as aquiring it from yourself.

 

[Hkmp5sd]

It goes in your log book if you aquired it with the license.

It goes it your bound book no matter HOW your acquired it, as long as you acquired it after you obtained your 03-FFL.

Department of the Treasury
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms
F: PD: FB: FT: nvc
AUG 10 1998

(inside address redacted)

Dear Mr. (redacted):

This is in response to your letter dated July 20, 1998, to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms. In your letter, you have inquired whether it is necessary to record the transfer of a curio or relic firearm in your acquisition and disposition records.

Please be advised that, in accordance with 27 CFR 178.125 (g), a licensed collector shall enter into a record each receipt and disposition of firearms curios or relics. Therefore, regardless of whether the curio or relic firearm was obtained using your collector's license, the acquisition must be entered into your records upon receipt. Accordingly, if you, as a licensed collector, dispose of a curio or relic firearm, the disposition also must be entered into your record book regardless of when it was obtained.

We trust the foregoing has been responsive to your request. Should you require additional information or have any questions, please contact us.

Sincerely yours,
(initialed) KRD
for Christopher M. Cuyler
Chief, Firearms Programs Division

http://www.geocities.com/yosemite/gorge/4653/preowned.htm

Department of the Treasury
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms
Washington, DC 20226
Dear Mr. Rxxx,
This is in response to your letter dated October 18, 1996, requesting information concerning the acquisition and disposition of curio and relic firearms.
In response to your questions, we feel the following information will resolve your areas of concern and confusion:
(A) Current regulations do not require licensed collectors to record in their bound book firearms acquired prior to obtaining their license. Therefore, subsequent sales of the previously acquired firearms would require no entry in your bound book records.
(B) If, after obtaining a license, a firearm is acquired for your personal collection, it must be entered into your bound book whether or not you use your collectors' license to purchase the weapon. See 27CFR 178.125(f). Any subsequent sale would have to be entered in your bound book records.
(C) You may immediately dispose of a firearm to a lawful buyer. The length of time you retain it is immaterial. The determining factor is under what circumstances it was acquired. If the firearm was acquired to enhance your personal collection, and you decide you do not like or want it, the length of time and amount it is sold for do not matter. However, if you acquire guns for the purpose of resale, for profit, you would be engaged in a firearms dealing business and would need a dealers' license. As you are aware, the definition of a dealer is ''A person who devotes time, attention and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principle objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such a term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms.'' Therefore, the purpose of the transactions would be the determining factor in whether you were dealing in firearms or merely enhancing your personal collection. The mere fact that you make a profit on the sale of a firearm from your collection would not mean you were dealing in firearms. Repeated transactions which are motivated by the desire to generate profit or income rather than enhancing your collection would indicate you were dealing in furearms, not collecting. If a collector acquires curios or relics for the purpose of sale rather than to enhance a collection, the collector should be a licensed dealer in firearms.The sole intent and purpose f the collectors' license is to enable a firearms collector to obtain a curio or relic from outside his State of residence.
(D) Disposing of personal firearms for the purpose of upgrading a collection is not engaging in a firearms business.

We trust this has been responsive to your request. If we can be of further assistance, please do not hesitate to contact us.

Sincerely yours,
Charles Bartlett
Acting Chief
Firearms and Explosives Operations Branch

http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/4653/cnrbiz02.htm

 

[Dr. Dickie]

They contradict themselves, who would have thought!

Letter #1 Quote:"Accordingly, if you, as a licensed collector, dispose of a curio or relic firearm, the disposition also must be entered into your record book regardless of when it was obtained."

Letter #2 Quote:"(A) Current regulations do not require licensed collectors to record in their bound book firearms acquired prior to obtaining their license. Therefore, subsequent sales of the previously acquired firearms would require no entry in your bound book records. "

Great, my original question stands! Do you, or do you not need to record the sale of a C&R obtained prior to getting your license?
Guess, I will have to write the BATFE myself to get something in writing that I can have to use if I ever decide to sell something.
Or better yet, log it in regardless of what you are told (with an explination). Better to have the evidence there and say you tried, than to just blow it off and try to justify it later.

 

[Trebor]

I was told to log-out any C&R that I sold even if I acquired it before I had the licenese. In that case you'd also "log it in" at the same time. The entry could simply state "Firearm acquired before date of C&R licensensure."

 

[Hkmp5sd]

As the records are never sent to ATF, it hurts nothing to just log everything that occurs in the C&R.

I was told the same as Trebor. You do not have to log anything you owned prior to getting the C&R. After obtaining the C&R, if you sell one of your previously owned C&R firearms, you enter it in the log book and then sign it out to the new owner.