Calibre's question

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Franco2shoot

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This is probably one of those newbie questions that most out there are gonna yawn at, but here goes.

A friend of mine just got a .357 Ruger magnum. My Christmas present was a .44 Ruger Blackhawk magnum. Now I can shoot .44 specials, and he can shoot .38 specials. I understand .44 specials, but how come I can't shoot .45 calibre ammo? Going from .357 to .38 seems to be a .023 increase where as .44 to .45 is only .010 so where is the measurement difference that causes this phenomena?

Thanks..

KKKKFL
 
The "roundth" ( my own special word ) of a bullet is only one part of the package. There is length , necking, rim shape ...

Do not experiment on your own. Or you will be very sad.
 
The actual diameter of the .38 Special is .357. I am unsure why they called it the .38 Special instead of the .357 Special.
The actual diameter of the .44, whether Special or Mag, is .429, .45ACP is .451 (if I remember correctly). So there's really a 0.221" difference there, and with the way the guns are made, you're not going to be able to do what you described, of course. I think Ruger makes (or made at one time) a .357 Magnum revolver with an extra cylinder for shooting the 9mm, but with between the .357 and 9mm there isn't much difference, only .002 inches. Just for grins, anyone know how that extra space affects muzzle velocity of the 9mm?
 
Great reply

Thanks guys.. That's why I enjoy this board so much.. just honest sharing of knowledge.. Unfortunately, not all boards are as friendly.

I wasn't gonna try the .45 I just wondered what the differences were. Notwithstanding the shape differance. Why do they call a 38 special a 38? Prolly some marketing decision..

Thanks again and a Happy New year to all that wanter "The High Road"

KKKKFL
 
When the .38 cartrege was first developed, some time in the 1840 timeframe, the brass tubing it was made from was 3/8" outside diameter, so the thing was called the 38, which was close, or at least a representation of the fractional value, 3/8. The bullet fit inside the tubing.
I was looking for a post I put up relating gauge to caliber, which explains some of the sizes we shoot today as outgrowths of smoothbore gauges. 50 gauge turns out to be .451 in dia, hence the .45. 100 gauge is .357" dia.

That post is on here, somewhere.
 
Franco,

There is not an industry standard as to how the caliber is measured/determined (or at least there wasn't an industry standard until recently). Some manufacturers measure caliber as the distance between the two opposing grooves in the barrel, which is the widest distance in a barrel. Some measure the distance between the lands (the raised portion of rifling when looking in a barrel). And some manufacturers take their measurements and then round up to make their gun seem bigger, or to make a nice even number, such as .45.
 
Oh, we weren't worried that you would try it... you couldn't get the .45 into your gun if you tried! (that is, unless you used a rather large hammer, and destroyed the .45 case (at a minimum) and possibly the cylinder of your gun... and after you DID get the cartridge in there, if it HASN'T blown up already from hammering on the primer end, things'll be so screwed up, I bet the cylinder won't rotate enough to load the second round OR get the first under the firing pin!

as for why, they already answered you... .38 is actually .357... (and 9MM is .355)
 
learning and lovin it

Hemicuda I just love that tongue in cheek stuff.. heheh sounds like you've been watching too many cartoons.. I really do enjoy the new .44 Blackhawk and need to do more research on cartridges. For instance, the .45 Long Colt brass seems to be nearly the same length as the .44 specials and .44 mags but the .44's seem to have more recoil than the .45 LC that I shoot in my 1858 Remington with the Conversion cylinder. If I dig down, I'll probably find that theres more grains in one that the other. But even this is not a golden rule as I found in my 1911. There I received a Christmas gift of 230 grain Lawman practice ammo and although it had the same number of grains as the American Eagle Ammo, the Lawman ammo would not cycle through the A-1. Bullet dimensions "Looked" identical so maybe Eagle brand 230 grain has more Umph than Lawman. Anyway, thanks to all that are helping me understand all these variations.

KKKKFL
 
If I remember correctly, a lot of the cartridges, in their original 1800's design, used a 'heeled' bullet like the .22 rimfire: the bullet was full diameter outside of the cartridge case- with the lube gooves exposed- and the heel was the part that fit inside the case.

When they began using bullets designed to the same diameter the full length with lube gooves covered by the case instead of enlarging the diameter of the case they reduced the diameter of the bullet to fit the original case size. So a .38 originally was .38" in the bullet body forward of the case; after the change the bullet was only .357" so it'd fit in the cartridge case.

Also, the size difference between .38 Special and .357 Mag is the Mag case is 1/10" longer, the bullets are the same diameter. Same with .44 Special and .44 Mag, the bullet diameter is the same but the Mag case is longer. Specifically so they won't fit in a 'Special' chamber.
 
It took me years to catch up on the industry's quirks. (And I still pretend a lot.)

You can shoot .45 LCs through a .454 Casull, but you can't shoot .22 LRs through a .22 magnum cylinder, because LR casings are flush with the diameter of the bullet. Magnums are slightly larger in diameter to increase powder capacity. In that case it probably wouldn't hurt you, but there are pictures in here of split LR casings guys have made when trying that one.

Think of it this way. Most defensive handguns come in basically three flavors, 9, 10, and 11 MM. Everything else is powder capacity, case length, and barrel adjustment.
 
firehand said:
When they began using bullets designed to the same diameter the full length with lube gooves covered by the case instead of enlarging the diameter of the case they reduced the diameter of the bullet to fit the original case size. So a .38 originally was .38" in the bullet body forward of the case; after the change the bullet was only .357" so it'd fit in the cartridge case.
That's correct. Originally, ".38 caliber" was .375 (3/8"). The cases were .375" outside diameter, made from 3/8" tubing. The bullets were "heeled", meaning the bullet diameter was the same as the case, with the bullet base stepped down to fit inside the case. This made cylinder manufacture easy, as the cylinders were simply bored straight through with a constant diameter. There was no separate "chamber" as there is on modern firearms. The only cartridge still in common use today that is made this way is the .22LR.

The biggest downside of the heeled bullet is that the lube grooves are exposed and therefore the bullets tend to attract grit. When manufacturers figured this out and switched to bullets that are smaller in diameter than the case, they reduced the bore size accordingly but kept the cartridge name. The the heeled ".38" cartridge actually uses a .357" diameter bullet.

Another good example is the "44" family or revolver cartridges that include the modern .44 Special and .44 Magnum. The original cartridge in this family was the Smith & Wesson .44 American, which used a heeled bullet. The case was .44 outside diameter as was the bullet. Smith & Wesson showed their new top-break revolver using this cartridge to the Russian government, and the Russians loved them, but wanted an inside-lubed (not heeled) bullet. Accordingly, Smith & Wesson reduced the bullet diameter to fit inside the case. That resulted in a .430 bullet. And S&W reduced the barrel diameter to fit the new bullet, i.e., .429 in the grooves (which is correct for a .430 lead bullet). The new cartridge was called the ".44 Russian", even though it now used a .43 caliber bullet. The .44 Russian was later lengthened to become the .44 Special, and lengthened again in the 1950s to become the .44 Magnum.

Which, by the way, means that you can actually fire three different cartridges out of your .44 Magnum revolver -- .44 Russian, .44 Special and .44 Magnum.
 
To understand why the .38 Special is a .357 and the .44 Special is a .429, you have to go back to the Civil War. Revolvers in those days were what we call "cap and ball" today, and could be loaded with loose powder, a separate projectile and ignited with a percussion cap.

To make such a revolver, the chambers were drilled from the front, leaving a wall or floor at the back of the chamber. A smaller hole was drilled from the back and threaded for the nipple.

To load such a revolver, point it up, fill a chamber with powder, seat a ball and ram it down. The ball had to be a tight fit and most revolvers had a compound lever mounted under the barrel. A properly sized ball left a thin ring of lead after rammimg. This means the ball, chamber and groove diameter of the barrel were all the same size -- they had to be.

After loading was complete, the chamber mouths were filled with grease -- lead bullets must be lubricated, especially if used in rifled barrels -- and the nipples capped.

After the Civil War, metallic cartridges were the wave of the future. A brass or copper case, containing a primer or priming mixture was filled with powder and a bullet crimped in the case mouth. This made a tight, rugged waterproof package that could be loaded more quickly than the old cap-and-ball arrangement. To make such a revolver was simple -- just bore the chambers all the way through, add a loading gate on the recoil shield, and reshape the hammer to set off the primer.

But wait! If the cartridge case goes inside the chamber, and the bullet goes inside the case, then the bullet must be smaller than the barrel! It won't shoot accurately.

The solution to this was the heeled bullet -- the cylindrical bullet had a reduce-diameter base (the heel) that fit inside the case. The rest of the bullet was left groove diameter. And the grease was smeared on the bullet.

And the grease picked up grit and crud, dried out in the sun, got rubbed off when carried in the pockets and so on. Back to the drawing board. The new bullet was made the same size as the original heel, with grease grooves and seated in the case deep enough so the grooves were below the case mouth. This is called an "inside lubricated" bullet and is the answer to the problem -- inside lubricated bullets are the standared for lead bullets to this day.

But now the bullet is too small for the barrel. There were two choices -- make the bullet, case, chamber, cylinder and revolver frame all bigger, or just make the barrel smaller. The latter was the obvious choice.

The .38 was reduced to about .36, the .44 (which was closer to .45 in the original heeled bullet) to about .43. But they retained their original caliber designations and were offered with soft lead bullets with hollow bases, which would still shoot passibly well in older revolvers with the larger bores.
 
As for why your .44 Mag hits harder (at BOTH ends) than your .45 Long colt, you need to do a little more investigating while your time machine is parked in the "way back when"...

the 45 LC was a BLACK POWDER cartridge, in use long before the "smokeless powder" (yeah right... try some cheap ammo once... smokeless, my butt![and a big butt it is!]) .44 Mag was even a gleam in the Remington designers eye...

The modern smokeless .45 LC's are loaded to specs that more closely akin to the black powder .45 LC's of "way back when"... (think what'd happen if you loaded "hot" smokeless powder loads into an old, vintage .45 LC Peacemaker? (it'd end alot like your .45 LC in your .44 revolver scenario above!)

.44 Magnums do not suffer this downloading, because they were designed (the casings, bullets, and the guns) to work with high-pressure smokeless powders... better metalurgy, better manufacturing processes, etc.
 
Hemicuda is right, but I think he overstates the case. The .45 Colt is still a very powerful round. From its introduction in 1873 until the .44 Magnum was unveiled in 1956, the .45 Colt reigned as the most powerful handgun cartridge in the world. In its original configuration, it packed a 255 grain .451 caliber lead bullet over 40 grains of black powder. That charge would move the bullet at velocities of over 1,000 fps. That's still one heck of a hard hitting round by today's standards.

The main reason modern .45 Colt ammo tends to feel "light" is not that the round is incapable of packing a wallop. The reason is that most .45 Colt ammo these days is produced for the "cowboy action" market. That's a speed game where heavy recoil kills your times. As a result, typical "cowboy" loads are in the 600-700 fps range, and may even use bullets as light as 200 or even 185 grains to minimize recoil. You can still get full power smokeless .45 Colt loads, though, and they are a major handful! The .45 Colt is more powerful than many "major" rounds in common use today, including the .4 Special, .45ACP and .40S&W.
 
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