California gov't seizes 500 legal ARs

[zealot]

People of California, you know what to do...

 

[Telperion]

No wonder the antis have been refocusing their message as an issue of state and local control. Once they move the legislation from Congress to the statehouse, and enforcement from BATF to state agencies, they can take advantage of the gun owners' self-righteous assignments of blame: "if only you people really cared about your rights, you wouldn't be in this situation. Ta-ta, off to shoot my new AR-15".

 

[Can'thavenuthingood]

How does one join the fray in The Peoples Republic of Kalifexico??

Go to:

Gun Owners of California
and
California Rifle and Pistol Association

http://www.gunownersca.com/

http://crpa.org/

Vick

 

[deanf]

Well these were taken from the stock of an FFL. It's not like breaking into someone's home and taking away his personal firearms.

It's not? These lowers were private property owned by a private person. I see no difference.

 

[Don't Tread On Me]

Ah yes, more proof (as if we really needed any more after New Orleans) that government doesn't even flinch at the idea of confiscation. There existed this question of whether or not the government would be hesitant or would they be bold. I think they are leaning toward the bold.


To those folks who keep on thinking there is some good left in government, keep on living the lie.

 

[bg]

I hate to say it but those 500 lowers are going to end up
as some form of rebar or be the most expensive lowers in
history. Can't really blame the DOJ as much as I hate to
say it. If a safe to hold all these lowers had been
present and the lowers locked away in it, this thread
more than likely wouldn't be going on. SB-23 or Cal's
infamous AWB is just what it is and the DOJ interprets
it as it sees fit until brought to court. Look how long it
took for the Kasler decision to come forth.

 

[progunner1957]

So what we have here is the DOJ seizing five hundred legal receivers on a technicality, and refusing to return them once the technicality has been fixed. For those of you who say the gov't hasn't taken your guns, well, they have just taken 500+ in one fell swoop in California.

Field Marshall Schwarzenegger must have gooped in his drawers

 

[gunsmith]

I just escaped PRK last year

Man am I ever so glad! if you are still there be sure to become an active member of your local NRA members council, I was when I lived there.

What a difference a border makes!

Now back to the thread, I hope they win a huge lawsuit...
Go team beat State!

 

[gunsmith]

oh is there a phone number we

can call to harass..oop's I mean ask why the CADOJ thinks stealing is ok?

 

[NineseveN]

I bet this is gonna get uglier very soon, keep your eyes peeled.

 

[gc70]

Please don't dismiss this as just a California thing--we are your fellow Americans, and the “as goes California, so goes the nation” saying hasn’t been repeated for no reason.

This may be a good reason for the NRA to not focus on California first.

Californians have been convinced that they are trendsetters for the nation and possibly the world. Hollywood and San Francisco are equally convinced that they are the trendsetters for California. People (particularly politicians) act differently when they think they are trendsetters for a broader group.

The NRA could focus all of its efforts on California and it might or might not have any significant effect. Instead, the NRA works in all 50 states. Successes in other states can leave California isolated. If Californians become convinced that they are not trendsetters, maybe they will forget about trying to save the world and will focus on what really makes sense at home in their own state.

 

[DarthBubba]

Does this action of the California department of injustice really surprise any one?

Does this action of the California department of injustice really surprise any one?, It seems that every time another Act of Marxists' run amok in California makes the hit parade we all rant and rave about it but until the menace of permissive liberalism and the Marxist controlling force behind it are purged from our society we will continue to see Actions like this.
This is why I am starting the campaign to elect anybody but the Scumbag that is there or a Scumbag that has already been there. This is my personal battle against the repeated election of the same political scumbags over and over for both State And Federal elections, it is such a simple plan just spread the word to one and all.
The concept is simple tell all of the people you meet that you do not care how they vote Republican, Democrat, Libertarian, or Independent just make sure that you do not vote for an incumbent or some one that has held the office on a previous occasion. Simple and to the point is it not?
Only with this influx of new thinking and people will “WE THE PEOPLE” Wrest back control of our rights and our destiny by not letting the professional politicians get in control of everything and spend an entire lifetime in office Fat, Well Fed off the Government Teat, and with Their Hands Habitually in Our Pockets and Their
Noses Firmly Planted in Our Business.
We can stop this but we need to start now. Go forth and spread the word!!!

DarthBubba

 

[Creeping Incrementalism]

Why is the California DOJ being blamed for the FFL's violation of Federal and presumably state law?

The CADOJ could be holding the receivers as evidence and pending criminal charges. 500+ counts of violating the federal law is pretty serious (really more like 4 or 5 charges per receiver).

The FFL had the financial means to purchase or rent a safe to handle the volume of sales, he failed to aquire a safe. Right now, you should stop people from doing business with this guy, he's shown litte respect for his customers property and the potential for the CADOJ or BATF to sieze the rest of his inventory exist.

Is it possible for the owners of the receivers to have them transfered to another FFL and restart the paperwork?

The (part-time) FFL, had a safe, but demand exceeded his expectations and he couldn't get them all in there. Yes he should have done more beforehand, but this is a minor issue, and the problem was rectified quickly, but then the DOJ broke the law by not returning the lowers. The DOJ just sort of sat around and ignored us for a few weeks, then decided to come up with a new, completely BS excuse about improper "wholesaling" or whatever to keep sitting on the lowers. The whole safe thing is an excuse to confiscate our guns. Having the DOJ transfer the lowers to another FFL... that's an academically interesting question, but I doubt they'd ever do it.

Clearly, it's a tough call, but I'm not sure how much of my NRA dues I want spent on saving what is clearly a lost cause (KA).

Do you know what Californian NRA members ask? Why do they take our money and spend it in places like Wisconsin where it's not really needed when the rights of the citizens of the 800# gorilla of U.S. states are being exstinguished.

Please don't dismiss this as just a California thing--we are your fellow Americans, and the “as goes California, so goes the nation” saying hasn’t been repeated for no reason.

actually that tired old meme needs to be retired. if it were the case then surely AZ would be CA-lite. I live in AZ and we see what happens next door and we vehemently reject all the stupidity we see.

There are some great holdout states like yours, but overall, the nation is becoming more California-like, not less. And I thought you people were complaining that Californians were moving to Arizona and gradually turning it into CA-lite.

 

[Creeping Incrementalism]

can call to harass..oop's I mean ask why the CADOJ thinks stealing is ok?

DOJ number: 1-800-952-5225

To recap: It is regarding the Milpitas FFL where the 500 AR lowers were seized because the safe wasn't big enough. A bigger safe was installed and the DOJ notified, but they did not return the lowers. Now they are claiming that the sale of the lowers was not legal because it was wholesaling or something--I really don't understand that. Let me know if anyone hears anything. Also, check http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=28447 for updates.

Warning: Cal DOJ clerks (1) dislike guns and gunowners, (2) are frequently ignorant of the law, and (3) will make things up as they go along if the law, as passed by the legislature, doesn't suit them.

The dealer in Milpetas (and, I might know him) can kiss his guns goodbye. The enemy ain't playing by rules

Considering Milpitas ran all FFL's out of town except for two, you might. The FFL is Rob, and he works out of a real estate office

 

[MCgunner]

Molon Labed?

Cold Dead Fingers?

It's California--those folks will travel half way across the country to steal firearms from the peasants.

Hey, let 'em come to Texas. We'll end the crisis....locked an loaded.

 

[pcf]

The (part-time) FFL, had a safe, but demand exceeded his expectations and he couldn't get them all in there. Yes he should have done more beforehand, but this is a minor issue, and the problem was rectified quickly, but then the DOJ broke the law by not returning the lowers. The DOJ just sort of sat around and ignored us for a few weeks, then decided to come up with a new, completely BS excuse about improper "wholesaling" or whatever to keep sitting on the lowers. The whole safe thing is an excuse to confiscate our guns. Having the DOJ transfer the lowers to another FFL... that's an academically interesting question, but I doubt they'd ever do it.

No, it's no minor issue. The FFL was improperly storing firearms. There are some tricky things and vageries in holding a type 01 FFL, but proper firearm/inventory storage isn't one of them, a half way competent FFL knows to never take in more inventory than he can store. 500+ violations of federal and state storage laws is no minor issue.

I wouldn't believe the CA DOJ excuses either. But, in all honesty it could take the better part of a year for the CA DOJ to conduct an investigation, regardless of what they tell you. And two or three years for them to dispose of the matter through the courts. If the feds want a bite at the case, there's no chance of the receivers being returned until the matter has been completed disposed of.

If you take the CA DOJ to court they're going to win. They can hold the receivers until the an investigation has been completed and gone to court, or they'll turn the receivers over to the ATF.

CA DOJ and the laws may suck, but blame clearly and solely lies on the FFL, he knowingly and intentionaly broke the law, and he screwed his customers.

Can you name a single state that would turn a blind eye to an FFL committing 500+ violations of federal and possibly state law?

 

[ScottS]

Do you know what Californian NRA members ask? Why do they take our money and spend it in places like Wisconsin where it's not really needed when the rights of the citizens of the 800# gorilla of U.S. states are being exstinguished.

You make a good point. I don't know what the right answer is here for a national organization with a finite warchest. It's certainly not an easy problem.

There are some great holdout states like yours, but overall, the nation is becoming more California-like, not less. And I thought you people were complaining that Californians were moving to Arizona and gradually turning it into CA-lite.

Well, I have to throw the <> flag there. What other state has adopted CA's "1 evil feature" ruling? Or SB-23? Or a 10 day waiting period on all guns? Or the CA Smog option on cars? Sorry, but on the state legislative front, we (gunowners) have been getting better, not worse, in the same period. The "As KA goes, so goes the nation" mantra is just rationalization, IMO.

 

[Creeping Incrementalism]

pcf: Whatever crime was committed with storage, the DOJ is required to return the property within 24 hours once the storage requirements are satisfied. That is what ticks me off about the DOJ. This also got me wondering, what exactly are the federal requirements for firearms storage? I've seen FFL's take all their pistols out from under the counter at closing time, but it seems like they leave the long guns up on the racks.

ScottS: I believe someone already mentioned that clean air requirements started in CA, and that in Boston they are talking about bullet serialization. After the 50 BMG got banned in California, 60 Minutes did two articles on how evil it is--not before, but after!. Didn't California have the first U.S. assault weapon legislation? It definitely had it before the feds did. I'm not saying it's a rule, but a generalization (Fed AW went away while CA's got worse, breaking the rule). I mentioned it because I get tired of other gunowners dismissing California--we are Americand too. I also say that as warning to the rest of the country that if they don't help put out the fire here, it may spread.

 

[ScottS]

ScottS: I believe someone already mentioned that clean air requirements started in CA, and that in Boston they are talking about bullet serialization. After the 50 BMG got banned in California, 60 Minutes did two articles on how evil it is--not before, but after!. Didn't California have the first U.S. assault weapon legislation? It definitely had it before the feds did. I'm not saying it's a rule, but a generalization (Fed AW went away while CA's got worse, breaking the rule). I mentioned it because I get tired of other gunowners dismissing California--we are Americand too. I also say that as warning to the rest of the country that if they don't help put out the fire here, it may spread.

I don't want to turn this into a whizzing contest. My only point is no other state has instituted the unbelievable legislation KA has been able to get away with, apparently, as one other person put it, because the average Kalifornian wants it that way. OK. As a group, when do you realize a cause is lost and cut and run? Should we (gunowners) spend all our capital and resources trying to change a system/mindset in KA that doesn't want to be changed? Supporting court cases for blantant violation of the law--sure. That's easy. But how much do we invest beyond that? I don't claim to have the answer. I think it's worthy of discussion.

In this case, sympathetic as I am to the latest efforts to work within the confines of the law, it does seem to me that the FFL in Milpitas (sp?) committed 500 counts of "unsafe storage of a firearm." If that's the case, then I would expect the DOJ would/could keep the lowers as evidence in support of prosecution on that charge. Is "unsafe storage of a firearm" like a broken tail-light? Do I get the ticket removed when I get the tial-light fixed, or is it like a crime (i.e. I can't just give the money back to convenience store I held up and expect that we're good.)? I don't know the answer here.

 

[Malone LaVeigh]

My facts? What I said was, just like the people who stayed behind by choice in NOLA, and then complained about the lack of rescue efforts, and just like someone who refuses to evacuate after an evacuation order is given, people who stay behind when it is clearly time to leave should not expect "rescuers" to expend great amounts of resources to "save" someone who shouldn't be there in the first place. Sad, but that's life.

I read it the first time, and you're still wrong. I know a lot of people that stayed. Some were foolish and shouldn't have, and others did so for very rational reasons. I'm not going to argue it, though, because it's OT and it's a good day to go to the range.

 

[robmkivseries70]

California Trends?

Hi All,
In the book "Megatrends" , published some time in the 80's, the author refered to California as a 'fad' state. States whose actions predicted trends were known as "bell weather" states. Hope it is still true.
Best,
Rob

 

[ElTacoGrande]

I don't want to turn this into a whizzing contest. My only point is no other state has instituted the unbelievable legislation KA has been able to get away with, apparently, as one other person put it, because the average Kalifornian wants it that way. OK. As a group, when do you realize a cause is lost and cut and run?

You don't need to cut and run. Look at the recent vote in Brazil. They do not have a culture of gun ownership. They are bomarded by negative media messages all the time. Few of them are gun owners. They have a very real and serious crime problem. And yet they responded wonderfully to the right message and resoundingly defeated a gun ban. A year ago anyone would have predicted an easy victory for the ban. IANSA was shocked by the outcome.

That was the result of the right message. We could do the same. CA is the biggest gun market in the US. Manufacturers make millions of dollars every year here. We have more gun owners than any other state (I assume). If Brazil can have a change like that, we can to.

It is the job of the NRA to design and implement strategies like that. What are they doing? I'm here, on the ground, and I never hear of them doing a thing in CA, except the occasional legal defense in a brain-dead case like the SF ban case.

 

[engineer151515]

Ah yes, more proof (as if we really needed any more after New Orleans) that government doesn't even flinch at the idea of confiscation. ................

Indeed.

The Katrina Legacy

I am already totally revamping my bug out firearms to be quick access, concealable. Small weapons. Common cartridges. Creative stowage. Hidden. Hidden. Hidden.



There is NO hesitation for Law Enforcement to grab first and let the legal process work out later leaving you high and dry.

Has a single law abiding citizen in NOLA had their weapon returned?


Right.



Neither will these.

 

[gunsmith]

on CA & the NRA

CA has tons and tons of gun owners, they might have more NRA members then any other state.
I know a left liberal gun owner, this guy allways votes green and has no problem jumping through all the hoops of even NY laws (he loves bureaucacy)...even he donated to the NRA when his pistols got banned (SF resident)

 

[LAR-15]

So how hard is it to enforce an assault weapons ban?