California - lead bullets banned?

[anotherKevin]

I was at the gun store last night and went to buy some .357 for target practise. The guy tells me I can't use the regular lead bullets in ranges any more, and I'll need .38 instead. I had noticed the last few boxes I bought were all copper plated bullets, and that there was some sign at the range last week saying a certain type of bullet couldn't be used. Frankly, I ignored it, as I had used what I had brought with me there before.

So, is there some new, ingenious infringement that I hadn't heard of? I keep up with the gun rights groups, tiresome as it is in the PRK, but this one is new to me.

And yes, before you suggest it, I will be moving ...

 

[Librarian]

So, is there some new, ingenious infringement that I hadn't heard of? I keep up with the gun rights groups, tiresome as it is in the PRK, but this one is new to me.

Not yet.

See the Activism Forum -- There's a bill in the Senate Natural Resources Committee, AB 821

This bill would enact the Ridley-Tree Condor Preservation Act to require the use of nonlead centerfire rifle and pistol ammunition when taking big game and coyote within specified areas. The act would require the commission to establish, by regulation, by January 1, 2008, a public process to certify centerfire rifle and pistol ammunition as nonlead ammunition, and to define nonlead ammunition by regulation. The act would also require the commission, to the extent funding is available, to provide hunters in these areas with nonlead ammunition at no or reduced charge through a coupon program. Under the act, a person who violates those requirements would be guilty of an infraction punishable by a $500 fine for the first offense.

On your way out the door, would you please drop a line to the Committee?

Possibly the range sign referred to steel-core bullets, which sometimes are banned because sparks can start fires, but that's just a guess. Some indoor ranges want TMJ, to lessen lead exposure.

No lead shot is permitted while hunting waterfowl:

§507.1. Nontoxic Shot Requirement for Waterfowl, American Coot and Common Moorhen Hunting.

Only bismuth-tin, steel, copper-plated steel, nickel-plated steel, tin-plated steel, zinc-plated steel, zinc chloride-plated steel, zinc chromate-plated steel, iron-tungsten, iron-tungsten-nickel, tungsten-bronze, tungsten-iron-copper-nickel, tungsten-matrix, tungsten-polymer, tungsten-tin-iron, tungsten-tin-bismuth, and tungsten-tin-iron-nickel or other nontoxic shot approved by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service may be used or possessed for waterfowl, American coot and common moorhen hunting statewide.

 

[anotherKevin]

I was fully aware of the non-toxic shot bill and the "condor protection" bill. As you state, neither of these are law yet.

This was a change that regarded pistol ammunition, on an indoor range, that was in effect already, hence the posting.

 

[CountGlockula]

I'm fine with the lead bullet ban for it only applies to the areas where condors roam.

Next time, I'd pay close attention to the rules of your indoor shooting range. Those post warning are there for a reason.

 

[El Tejon]

I'm not fine with it. Sure it may only apply to Condors in Sandalland but we will soon see this logic used to protect fuzzy bunnies across the Fruited Plain.

 

[B yond]

There's this idiotic idea that lead ammo is destroying the condor population by getting into the water supply. In a stroke of brilliance, someone decided it'd be a good idea to ban lead ammo. I mean, its not like this is just an excuse to try and make it too expensive to shoot by requiring special ammo.

If that were the case they would still allow the use of lead fishing weights, which actually do end up in the water supply. Oh wait, they DO still allow lead fishing weights.

This is just more cowpoop aimed at making shooting too expensive for the average person to enjoy.

 

[1 old 0311]

See NO politician wants to be the one who tries to ban firearms, it is a Second Amendment right. There is however NOTHING in the Constitution that says they can't tax ammo through the roof, or ban certail types of ammo.
They WON'T go after our weapons, but they WILL/ARE going after our ammo.

 

[El Tejon]

Ummm, no. As the First protects a right to ink or printing presses, the Second protects ammunition.

As the Supreme Court has said, "a right to food would imply a right to eat it."

 

[highdesert]

Did the gun store guy say it was state law? I've seen gun stores put signs up at their indoor ranges because they (or their insurance company) is concerned about airborne lead. I don't believe there is *yet* a law to that effect, it's just store policy.

highdesert

 

[Harry Paget Flashman]

The Consumer Product Safety Commission tried to get handgun ammunition declared "an imminent hazard" and have it banned in 1975. Link:http://www.cpsc.gov/CPSCPUB/PREREL/prhtml75/75016.html

It is not so far-fetched to think that the anti's won't try anything once, or twice.

 

[Malone LaVeigh]

There's this idiotic idea that lead ammo is destroying the condor population by getting into the water supply.

Check your facts. The ban in condor country has nothing to do with water. The birds are carrion-eaters and injest the bullets when they get ahold of large game that have been wounded and died without being recovered, or from gut piles left by hunters.

They are large birds. That means a bullet-sized hard piece gets swallowed and treated like a crop stone. They stay in the crop till ground into fine particles which makes the lead especially available for being absorbed into the bird's system.

Lead poisoning in condors is real and documented.

 

[Lashlarue]

Lead is toxic, just handling it can kill you.I stopped using all lead bullets years ago.More dangerous to your health than smoking.Using common sense does not make you anti-gun.I don't believe the extra couple of hundred dollars I've spent using copper jacketed bullets over the years is going to break me. I had a friend who cast his own bullets, both he and his wife died prematurely,[in their 40s] some years ago. There was no autopsy done but both looked twenty years older than they were , when they died.

 

[22LongRifle]

I can't remember where I saw/here it, but the USMC is banning ALL lead in their practice ammo by 2008.

I see the other sercives following suit.

I've casted my owned bollits for more than ten years. I don't buy into the dangerous than smoking hype. To each there own, but casting and reloading has kept me and my family INTO shooting for the last five years due to the lower cost. But the higher cost of scrap lead and reloading items is not giving me any relief in shooting that it once has. Hence my handle and my "passion" for 22lr conversion kits for the weapon platforms I lust for.

Higher ammo cost won't hurt collectors and those who shoot once a year. But those of us how own more ammo than weapons, it hits home and forces us home instead of at the range.

And it affects the BP shooters as well! I bought BP for $5 a can in 2002 at the local BP shoots. Now I have to traval to KY and pay $15 a can! IF I can't cast my .50 and .54 cal balls and bullets from scrapped lead, then I'm paying $9.00 for 50 store bought RBs!

I see this adding fuel to the antis fire by seperating the loosely knit shooters (BP, hunters, LEOs, collectors, plain jane shooters) and making shooting a "rich man's game"!

My personal "arsenal" is a fraction to what it ten years ago. If I don't shoot it, I don't own it! It's not due to lack of range time, I've got plenty of time! Its the cost of ammo!

Sorry it a possible "hijaking", but I just see a trend coming.....hope I'm wrong.....

Jerry

 

[obxned]

So does anyone actually think anybody will get any nonlead ammunition at no or reduced charge through a coupon program?

 

[trueblue1776]

I didn't think solid lead was dangerous to anything, only in particulate and vapor form, am I wrong?

 

[1911Tuner]

I didn't think solid lead was dangerous to anything, only in particulate and vapor form, am I wrong?

You're correct. While it's true that merely handling solid lead without observing proper hygene...like wahsing your hands afterward, or handling finger food before washing...can introduce lead into your system...you'd have to handle a lot of lead and eat a lotta sandwiches with dirty hands afterward to elevate your levels into risky territory.

The risk comes from ingesting and breathing small particles about the size of dust. Wash your hands when handling lead, and use good ventilation when smelting it. You'll be fine.

 

[trueblue1776]

So to carry that logic little further, would a big bird ingesting a 100gr bullet really hurt the bird? I honestly don't think so, the exposure would probably be so low that the bird would have to eat them for days on end to get sick.

As far as metals go lead isn't very reactive, especially with acids. Unless there is some magical component in digestive tracts, I don't know how solid becomes particulate in these birds.

I've been putting split-shot on fishing line with my teeth for years, I think California has lead confused with uranium.

 

[1911Tuner]

Unless there is some magical component in digestive tracts, I don't know how solid becomes particulate in these birds.

Since birds don't chew...because they don't have teeth...something has to grind up what they eat before it can pass into the lower part of the digestive tract.

And this:

That means a bullet-sized hard piece gets swallowed and treated like a crop stone. They stay in the crop till ground into fine particles which makes the lead especially available for being absorbed into the bird's system.

...is how it happens. So, yes. A chunk of lead swallowed by a bird would eventually be ground into small enough particles to be a problem.

 

[trueblue1776]

well, I guess I forgot that, stupid birds..

 

[dubious]

I've become interested in this topic ever since one of my friends was telling me how fuming mad he was about the lead ban. I didn't really have anything intelligent to say at the time, but since then I've been doing a fair amount of research on this topic. I am a hunter and I live very close to the Monterey area California Condor ranges. Just cuz I'm interested in this doesn't mean I want to take away your EBR.

I'm going to reference a bunch of stuff from the California and Arizona fish and game sites. If you can find contradictory info, I'm all ears.. Let's get to the bottom of this, shall we?

Here's some quick info about California Condors:

-In 1987 the California Condor population was reduced to only 22, all in captivity.

-Today the condors have bounced back, slowly. As of 4/26/2007 there are 69 wild Cal. Condors in California, 63 in Arizona, and 12 in Baja. There are 144 others still in captivity.

-"Lead toxicity has been identified as the leading cause of death in condors in the Arizona reintroduction program. Eight confirmed and two suspected condor deaths have been caused by lead poisoning, the most recent occurring in March of 2006. Condors in Arizona are trapped twice a year to have their blood tested for lead. Biologists have seen 211 instances of lead exposure in condors since testing began in 1999. A total of 49 condors have been exposed to lead, most multiple times, with 31 birds requiring treatment (chelation) to reverse dangerously high blood lead levels (data current as of March 2006). Without these treatments more condors might have died." (from http://www.azgfd.gov/w_c/california_condor_lead.shtml)

-California Condors may live for 50 years or more, and mate for life.


Ok... now one of the first questions that came to my mind was... "don't most deer caliber bullets just pass through without fragmenting?". Have a look at this study of bullet fragmentation in deer. You can actually see the x-rays of 38 hunted mule deer. They found, more often than not, hundreds of very tiny bullet fragments.

http://www.peregrinefund.org/pdfs/ResearchLibrary/Fragmentation data and radiographs.pdf

Is this study the work of honest field biologists or raving antis? Was this a fair selection of common hunting ammos or a biased one? I don't honestly know for sure. The x-rays seem pretty convincing to me.

I've read that Condors like large game in particular because they are uniquely able to cut deep into the carcass with their beaks compared to other carrion creatures. They apparently have especially powerful digestive acids which make the lead much more deadly to them than other birds.

I'm leaning towards supporting a lead ban for hunters in Condor range areas. This is not because I think the condors are pretty or cute. I care because we people have already recklessly eradicated more than enough of god's creatures from our planet. Is the $35 MILLION dollar effort to recover the condor worth it? I don't know. Is it the health of the condor and that $35 million already spent worth banning lead ammo in the few condor recovery areas? I think so.

Arizona has a neat program where they give you a free voucher for copper ammo with your deer license. So you can use a carrot, not just a stick. Even if you disagree with the lead ban, you should still support the copper bullet vouchers.

I don't think that lead ammo should be banned in any way for sale. It should still be legal to own and to use in non condor habitat, shooting ranges, or for home defense. Let's just try and use common sense to protect our environment and our great grandkids will still be enjoying hunting just like we do.

 

[pdowg881]

question- How come every chemical I have ever see says "This is known to the state of california to cause cancer and birth defects, etc" I see it on everything from househole cleaners to furniture polish. Maybe on my OJ carton too.

 

[Scorpiusdeus]

Getting back on topic, what you may have run into is a ban on Lead primers in indoor ranges. In Oxnard my local range has such a ban. I have to shoot ammo with lead free primers like Winclean or Fiocci Leadless.

 

[Zoogster]

Would be a good way to severely restrict handgun ammo and increase expense.
Federal law already limits handgun ammunition to very strict guidlines. If lead is restricted or banned very little would be legal. They could then make CA only bullets, just like they through emission standards require CA only automobiles. Ever heard of a 49 states motorcycle? Its not because they are really concerned with the amount of pollution by a single motorcycle which is already going to be less than almost all cars and therefore a better single occupancy vehicle to begin with, but so they can control the market. It is intentionaly designed to create a seperate market subject to seperate supply and demand from the rest of the nation. This allows greater control and manipulation. Forces people to pay CA sales tax rather than purchase out of state etc.

For ammunition they could require a specific lead alloy (like hevishot). One that is more expensive, and therefore only will be produced for CA, and then exempt police so that the one publicly acknowledged group of armed people that need performance over politics do not have reason to speak out.
They could then control the price, and force ammunition to be bought at CA prices in the CA market.

Once CA can control the type of ammunition allowed, they can quickly control the usefulness and cost of using firearms.
For example, just imagine if only aluminum bullets were allowed So many children would be saved from gunfire.

It may start as a save the condor, yet increase in scope late. While saving condors we might as well save other poor animals outside its range right? (of course arguably most of the state was once its range) Save all wildlife from toxic metals. Soon we can be forced into shooting safe environmentaly friendly vitamin pills. They may only have half the foot pounds of energy, lose velocity rapidly, cost many times as much per round and otherwise make killing both as a hunter, and stopping an attacker in self defense less effective, but as long as its good for the environment.

That will just further divide the ammunition market driving up prices for all ammunition since production would be divided more into special purpose rounds for different uses rather than bulk production for a single market, or couple markets.

 

[scrat]

i think the part that really sucks. is for those of us who do cast bullets. i mean i probably have around a good thousand bullets all cast and lubed ready to be cased. So now what. Save the condor. My shooting happens at an outdoor range so how does that relate to shooting at deers or wildlife. does not make any sense. especially for those of us who specialize in sillouette shooting where. Copper jacketed ammo is not prefered and is not allowed in some ranges. So i guess we will be shooting at 3 inch iron plates.

 

[Yosemite**Sam]

I'd agree with Scorpi on this. The sign probably pertains to using lead free primers and encapsulated bullets such as Winchester Win-clean or Federal Non-tox.

By the way boys this new lead free primer stuff is horrible. I believe Winchester gives it something like a 3 years shelf life. We first started using Federal 9mm Non-tox 3 years ago. It was soo bad that we had to send back about a million rounds to the factory. Federal then sent us some replacement ammo which was pretty good.

Yep the new stuff has a short shelf life.