Camp Gun: 4" barreled .38 Special and what ammo?

[Southern Shooter]

In another thread I addressed the issue of a short-barreled .357 for a defensive weapon in the woods.

Here I would like to address another issue...similar but not the same based on the caliber in question. I know...I know...the .38 special is hardly a hunting weapon or weapon designed with animals in mind.

Each of my family members has a 4" barrel service-size .38 special because of ease to use, low recoil, ability to aim quickly, etc.. They just plain like them. They practice and are pretty good shots. My oldest puts each slug in a 6" circle at 25 yards. Anyway, they brought up an interesting question:

Given its limitations, what .38 special ammunition would offer them the best critter protection...you know...an a handy camp gun to keep on the hip? Anyone out there with experience using a .38 special to dispatch problem animals? How large an animal was it? They all understand that these guns are not designed for such adventures. But this is what they have to use. I thought about the Winchester 158 grain +P lead semi-wad cutter HP. Velocity is 890 and fpe is 278. Winchester came to mind because its lead is a bit harder than other brand rounds of similar design thus pushing for deep penitration.

Input from the crowd, please.

 

[Cougfan2]

I would go with a straight 158 gr Lead SWC. I don't think the hollow point is going to be much of an advantage at velocities you mentioned. I would think you would get better penetration with a straight SWC. But, I could be wrong!

 

[351 WINCHESTER]

If your talking small to medium size critters and you're not worried about bears, please consider the lowly wadcutter. In years of carrying a snubbie loaded with wadcutters, I've found them to dispatch critters quicker than any factory high performance rounds. It's the cookie cutter effect plus the full wadcutter profile that does it. I think the lower velocity actually makes the w/c more effective, but I have no way of proving this. Just actual shootings.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I usually carry my .357s loaded with mild .38 Special wadcutters -- 2.7 grains of Bullseye behind a 148 grain wadcutter. This is a wonderful small game load.

I literally live in the woods, and while there are bears around here -- and feral dogs, too -- I really don't worry about them all that much.

 

[kludge]

I thought about the Winchester 158 grain +P lead semi-wad cutter HP. Velocity is 890 and fpe is 278.

I prefer the load from Remington.

or there's this:

http://www.buffalobore.com/ammunition/default.htm#38spl
http://www.buffalobore.com/ammunition/default.htm#standard38

 

[Southern Shooter]

Buffalo Bore specs

Hey Kludge,
I checked out the specs for 2 of Buffalo Bore's rounds. WOW !!!! The 150 grain very hard cast Wad Cutter sounds like it may be the ticket for a .38 special camp gun. Seems to me that "S&W Mt. Gun, 4 inch barrel—1005 fps (336 ft. lbs.)" breaths new life in the lowely service .38 special allowing it to be pressed into "woods duty". It is still not a cannon but appears to be a definite improvement. Any thoughts on that?


Standard Pressure Short Barrel
Heavy .38 Special

********
Item No. 20C/20 158gr. very soft lead cast, SWC-HC gas checked bullet — 854 fps (256 ft. lbs.) from S&W mod. 60, 2 inch barrel Per Box of 20
$20.99

Item 20C utilizes the same 158gr. very soft lead cast, SWC-HC gas checked bullet, we load in our +P 38 SPL ammo. It is designed to expand and then penetrate quite deep. (Approx. 14 inches in human tissue) This bullet is gas checked and will NOT lead your barrel. Note the below velocities that I recorded out of my personal revolvers—NOT TEST BARRELS!

a. S&W mod. 60, 2 inch barrel—854 fps (256 ft. lbs.)
b. S&W mod. 66, 2.5 inch barrel—871 fps (266 ft. lbs.)
c. Ruger SP101, 3 inch barrel—930 fps (303 ft. lbs.)
d. S&W Mt. Gun, 4 inch barrel—979 fps (336 ft. lbs.)

********
Item No. 20D/20 Very hard cast 150gr. WAD CUTTER bullet — 868 fps (251 ft. lbs.)from S&W mod. 60, 2 inch barrel

Item 20D utilizes a very hard cast 150gr. WAD CUTTER bullet. The bullet is made hard, so it won’t deform or mushroom. It cuts/crushes a “cookie cutter”, full diameter hole in human flesh just like it does on a paper target. It penetrates deeply (roughly 14 to 16 inches in human tissue) and its full diameter profile maximizes blood loss as it cuts and crushes (not slips or slides) its way through tissue. Although I’ve never been shot with a full profile wad cutter bullet, I must assume that the initial impact of that wide flat nosed bullet, is crushingly formidable. As a teenager, I took to the woods on a regular basis and killed many a critter with heavily loaded 38SPL wad cutters’. The effect of a full profile wad cutter on small game was obvious and amazing, compared to regular round nosed bullets. That flat nose, literally hammers living things. These bullets are hard and properly lubed and will NOT lead your barrel. Note my velocities from real world “over the counter” revolvers—NOT TEST BARRELS!

a. S&W mod. 60, 2 inch barrel—868 fps (251 ft. lbs.)
b. S&W mod. 66, 2.5 inch barrel—890 fps (264 ft. lbs.)
c. Ruger SP101, 3 inch barrel—961 fps (308 ft. lbs.)
d. S&W Mt. Gun, 4 inch barrel—1005 fps (336 ft. lbs.)

 

[Southern Shooter]

Then there is this....

Buffalo Bore
Heavy .38 Special +P Short Barrel Low Flash

Item 20A: 158gr., very soft cast, semi wad cutter, (Keith) hollow cavity, with a gas check. This bullet will mushroom violently on impact and will penetrate roughly 14 inches in human flesh. Again, this bullet is gas checked and will not lead your barrel.

S&W mod. 60, 2 inch—1040 fps (379 ft. lbs.)
S&W mod. 66, 2.5 inch—1059 fps (393 ft. lbs.)
Ruger SP101, 3 inch—1143 fps (458 ft. lbs.)
S&W Mt. Gun, 4 inch—1162 fps (474 ft. lbs.)

Would softer or harder lead be prefered in dealing with woods critters up to 200 lbs?

 

[MCgunner]

I'd go with a +P 158 SWC no hollow point. I think, actually, the .38 +P is pretty decent as a defense against most animal attack. Against a cat, fine. Black bear don't exist around here and I can hit a hog in the head if he's THAT close. Hogs don't attack anyway unless you're attacking them. I fear feral dogs around here much more than any other possible animal. There are a lot of 'em around and no one will take care of the things. I shoot 'em down on my place, but the police was called out down to the bay front by a couple of wade fishermen out in front of my house not too long ago due to a pack of wild dogs that has been killin' my cats and harrassing the general population around here for a while. They have some expensive sheep kills (exotics a guy is raising) to their exploits. I don't trust feral dogs, have been attacked by dogs in the past.

Other than dogs, there's nothing around here I even need to carry a firearm for defense against anyway except 2 legged predators and the .38 is well proven against those. I have a little .38 Rossi I occasionally tote afield in a Russian makarov flap holster. It's a 3" barreled gun and is quite accurate. I usually have it stuffed with wadcutters for rabbits when I carry it. It's a little more compact than my .22 kit gun and shoots almost as well.

I usually have a .38 snub with me when I'm fishing. I tranquilize the occasional shark with it. When I hike in bear country I usually tote a .357 magnum 4" medium frame. Haven't been out west in a while, though.

 

[RandyB]

I vote for the 158 SWC +p of various types as well for critters that need defending against.

 

[jcord]

I use a hard cast wide flat nose 158 grain bullet for 38 and 357. I cast it using a lee mold and could not be happier with the results. For 38s its pushed by 5 grains of unique.

 

[B.D. Turner]

My woods walking pistol is a Taurus .38 ultra lite snubbie. We do have black bears here but more danger from snakes than bears. Wild dogs have been a problem in years past but now that we have coyotes the wild dogs have gone away. I load mine with 158gr RNL not a PD load but works on dogs and snakes.

 

[MCgunner]

I use a hard cast wide flat nose 158 grain bullet for 38 and 357. I cast it using a lee mold and could not be happier with the results. For 38s its pushed by 5 grains of unique.

I load that exact same bullet with that exact same powder charge. It's mildly +P, not really THAT hot, but I feel it'll do anything that needs doin' from a .38 in the field. I load the Lee gas check bullet in .357, same profile, meplat, or whatever you call it as the TL standard SWC I use in .38. It has killed two deer from a Blackhawk and one from a Rossi carbine and did a fine job.

 

[wcwhitey]

I would go with either the SWC or Full Wadcutter. Flat nose hits harder and penetrates deeper than most hollow points. My duty ammo for a while was the Federal Nyclad 158 SWC +P, got to see first hand it's effects on tissue, it worked well. Not sure if they still catalog them, but a nice round. Winchester would be my second choice. That Buffalo Bore full wadcutter round looks promising, nice to see the thought process behind their development. Basically what I am saying is that hollow points are for people defense, flat nose lead bullets at +P velocities will do the job and penetrate deeply. Bill

 

[kmrcstintn]

federal american eagle 158 gr lrn, cci blazer 158 gr lrn (harder lead alloy), ultramax remanufactured 158 gr lrn, ultramax remanufactured 158 gr swc, or pc ammo remanufactured 158 gr swc...in the woods & camp, I want solid to penetrate & load first 2 with cci shotshell for things that slither

 

[mbt2001]

The .38 special is a fine small to medium sized game handgun. I would prefer a longer barrel, but it is acceptable for that purpose out of a 4" barrel; it should suffice for the kind of whitetails that are out in Louisiana with the proper bullet placement. Anyway, if I was carrying that gun, I would want to load 1 x 110 grain hollow point and 5 x 158 grain softnose or swc bullets. If you have an ammo carrier or pouch, keep some snake shot too. Maybe even load the first round as snake shot.

Anyway, I like the .38 as a knock around gun. I prefer the .357 as it gives me more options, but the .38 is a fine round.

Southern Shooter, you might want to purchase Cartridges of the World or similar on amazon.com or ebay.com. I have the 7th edition and have never been sorry. The fellows that edited the book have vast firearm experience and give you the benefit of their experiences... Since it agrees with my general experience, I have always liked it.

 

[goldminer]

"Camp gun"...

Forget the pistol (too limited and too many limiting laws) and get yourself a short stocked short barrel fast handling and no-brainer 20-guage pump shotgun.

An inexpensive yet reliable one is produced by Mossberg. The market it under the model name "Home Defender". Load it with #2 shot backed up with a couple of rifled slugs if you're going to be in an area where a bear might present a problem.

At home load it with low-base shells with #8 shot (used on dove and quail). The #8 shot will do the same damage to a body across a room that OO buckshot will do. #8 shot because they are so small will also expend their energy so fast that they will not go through an outside wall and hit a neighbor, or an inside sheetrock wall and possibly injure someone else in the house.

 

[goldminer]

"Camp gun"...

Forget the pistol (too limited and too many limiting laws) and get yourself a short stocked short barrel fast handling and no-brainer 20-guage pump shotgun.

An inexpensive yet reliable one is produced by Mossberg. The market it under the model name "Home Defender". Load it with #2 shot backed up with a couple of rifled slugs if you're going to be in an area where a bear might present a problem.

At home load it with low-base shells with #8 shot (used on dove and quail). The #8 shot will do the same damage to a body across a room that OO buckshot will do. #8 shot because they are so small will also expend their energy so fast that they will not go through an outside wall and hit a neighbor, or an inside sheetrock wall and possibly injure someone else in the house.

 

[kmrcstintn]

scenario...your hunting camp is an old family farm that was let go and overgrown with trees and underbrush over several generations; the common areas, vehicle trails, and widened foot trails are cleared and grass covered; these grassy areas need to be mowed and the underbrush needs to be cut back from time to time; you have your choice of weapons to include riding mower, motorized push mowers, self push mowers, machetes, and reaping flails...

use of these implements will be hampered if I have to carry a shotgun or keep adjusting the sling on my shoulder...with a handgun on my hip, I am able to perform the necessary cleaning & maintenance tasks and have a weapon on me at all times without having to be impeded by a longgun

 

[nitesite]

If your chambers are long enough for them, a 168 or 173-gr hard cast Keith bullet at around 900-950 fps is an awesome trail load. If necessary to fit your chambers, drop down to a 158-gr hard cast SWC and you'll still be happy.



A previous poster mentioned 5.0-gr Unique under a 158-gr cast SWC. That's a fantastic load that should shoot to your sights from a Model 10. This load hits with a whallop, creates a rapidly-bleeding wound channel, and drives deep (or even thru) almost anything you might encounter.

With a load like that you hardly need a .357 Magnum. Yeah, I know that I included a pic of my 686 but those cartridges are .38 Specials with 168-gr Keiths and 5.5 grains of Unique.