Can a new lower mess up a previously very accurate load?

Lee Q. Loader

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With my 6.5 grendel upper stuck on my M&P stock lower, I had a load that shot easy .70" groups at 100 yards. The best load I've ever developed.

I was excited when my new lower from Palmetto arrived, but that excitement was short lived. That same load and upper, on the new lower and I'm suddenly shooting 1.5" and 2.0" groups. This happened twice now at my "range".
The trigger on this lower is better, there is no creep at all.

Let's dismiss the fact that I might not be used to the new trigger yet. I should be able to shoot even better in my opinion.
Do I need to develop new loads for this lower? That doesn't seem right to me. I'm hoping some of you who understand all this better can school me a bit.
 
With my 6.5 grendel upper stuck on my M&P stock lower, I had a load that shot easy .70" groups at 100 yards. The best load I've ever developed.

I was excited when my new lower from Palmetto arrived, but that excitement was short lived. That same load and upper, on the new lower and I'm suddenly shooting 1.5" and 2.0" groups. This happened twice now at my "range".
The trigger on this lower is better, there is no creep at all.

Let's dismiss the fact that I might not be used to the new trigger yet. I should be able to shoot even better in my opinion.
Do I need to develop new loads for this lower? That doesn't seem right to me. I'm hoping some of you who understand all this better can school me a bit.
You developed a very specific load for a very specific system. Now the weight is different, harmonics are different, trigger is different, grip may be different, etc... It's not that one system is better/worse than the other - just that it's different and seems to want a new load developed for it.
 
Seems odd to me that a lower would have much impact on a good load. Maybe, if the hammer force is different/erratic on the primers?
Cheek weld, trigger pull, or some part of the ergonomics of the lower making you a worse shot?

I would swap the lowers back out and see how it is. If it goes back to .7 I would then leave that lower on it.
 
A change in powder, bullet, brass or primer lot number can screw up a load. Changing your barrel cleaning solvent can screw up a load. An unfavorable alignment of Mercury in retrograde can screw up a good load. I'm going with yes, changing lower can absolutely screw up a good load.
 
I have not experienced this issue personally and I have three different lowers I swap around often between four different uppers for competition and I always use the data/dope book for the specific upper regardless of which lower I'm using that day. Granted I'm also not shooting for tiny groups, just a ~2moa X-ring at varying distances up to 600 yards. But I'd surely notice if the group size opened up or shifted POI between them and it doesn't. FWIW
 
More play between the halves, perhaps? .....
My first thought when I read the openng post.

My second thought was remembering a recent benchrest match where I shot two 10s and while squeeszing off the third shot I felt the buttplate slip as the trigger broke and the third shot ended up in the 8 ring. Consistent fit and stability of the rifle's butt to your shoulder can affect group size.
 
I put the old lower back on and went out today. I shot 2 groups of 5. First one was .85", second one was .66". I guess it really does matter.
I'm shaking my head.
They make a thing called a accuwedge that will tighten them up, I have gone as far bedding the rear pin in the lower. Might check buffer and spring weight difference.
 
I would run one more test. Swap the new trigger into the old upper and see what you get. I would think you would get the same .70" group with a better trigger pull.

chris
 
All troubleshooting, electronic or mechanical, starts with what you have in symtoms and then systematically and logically narrows down the potential causes through a form of elimination.

In general, if something worked fine before, then someone "touched it" and it doesn't work fine afterwards, take a look at what was "touched".

In this case the lower was changed, so I'd start there. Functionally speaking, you apparently have no other difficulties/problems. The rifle fires and cycles as it should.

You have three possible areas to investigate at this point (possibly more, depending on what you find as you go along).

1. The ammunition. Regardless of what you THINK about the ammunition, you cannot rule it out at this point. The ammunition you have in hand is NOT physically the SAME ammunition which gave you such tight groupings. Might be made from the same powder, same bullets, same primers, etc., but they are physically not the ones you've shot previously. Any number of issues with the ammunition could cause the groupings to be different. It could also be issues not involving the ammunition itself, per se. Like temperature/weather. Until you test for this, you cannot automatically eliminate it.

2. The lower in combination with the upper. It is, in fact, a different lower.

3. The mechanical interface between the lower and the upper.

4. The operator.

Start with sitting down and shooting some rounds under tightly controlled conditions. Preferably conditions which will exist in future test shootings. (Same ammo batch, same bench set up, same range, same weather, etc.)

After you've established how the rifle shoots under tightly controlled conditions, restore your rifle to its original configuration. This is a go-no go test. If the rifle's accuracy improves, then the issue is very likely NOT to be the ammunition or the operator. (Remember...it's just as important to know where the problem ISN'T as it is to know where the problem IS. Why? Because it narrows down the area where the fault can be found.)

If the rifle's accuracy does NOT improve, then you've established that SOMETHING has changed which affected the overall accuracy of your rifle and you need to sit down and figure out some additional systematic tests to see if you can produce a different result.

Keep in mind that it could be a combination of issues which contribute to this. It could simply be the fit-up (mechanical interface) between the upper and the lower has to be "just so" with either lower to get the accuracy you had before and when you disassembled/reassembled the rifle it is ever so slightly different.


I do a LOT of troubleshooting of instrumentation and control systems. Faults can be a huge range of issues. It could be something the shop screwed up while doing work. It could be that a card/module needs to be reseated. It could be incorrect material used. It could be simple mechanical issues like loose hardware. There are a ton of things. Regardless, successful troubleshooting methodology is ALWAYS the same: It's got to be systematic and logical.
 
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I have never seen that happening in all the swapping I've done. Are you using the same bolt/BCG or a new one?

The only thing I have noticed is when changing to or from a stock that has a shock/spring to help absorb recoil, G-Shock. With these it's very hard to control the recoil movement.
 
They make a thing called a accuwedge that will tighten them up,

I run Accuwedges in my AR's... I don't know if they help, but I do know they don't hurt. They do help take some of the slop out between a lower and upper, but I've even heard of people shimming the gap to make the fit more solid.

Swapping a lower between an upper is just like pulling a bolt gun out of a factory stock and sticking it in a different stock... it can very well completely change the dynamics of the rifle. I had the same thing happen with my M1a... but there is a lot more going on there than either an AR, or a bolt gun.
 
Thanks everyone for your help and advice. I'm going to try the accuwedges and see what happens.
I love this rifle, by far my favorite to shoot. I like it so much and that's why I started buying stuff to "upgrade" it.

I've got a new scope and an mlok bipod ordered for it. Now I'm worried that adding those will affect it's accuracy!

Anyone have any opinions on that?
 
Depending on how well the upper is assembled, and how, tension from a bipod can affect accuracy, and particularly if you are really cranking on it. Question: did you assemble your upper, or did you buy it assembled?

Personally, I would keep the current lower, and buy a new trigger for it... in lieu of swapping parts around between your new lower, unless you have no use for the new lower.
 
I have no experience with switching lowers on ARs but really can't see how it could except for the trigger being enough different from the other or fitting issues with the lower due to a different stock. I know that wiggle between the lower and upper is not supposed to affect accuracy but it does for me. My S&W M&P had a slight amount of wiggle and when I removed it I became more accurate. I am from the era when a rifle was one solid object.
 
Thanks everyone for your help and advice. I'm going to try the accuwedges and see what happens.
I love this rifle, by far my favorite to shoot. I like it so much and that's why I started buying stuff to "upgrade" it.

I've got a new scope and an mlok bipod ordered for it. Now I'm worried that adding those will affect it's accuracy!

Anyone have any opinions on that?

I would not "try the accuwedges" right off the bat. Do some systematic testing like what I described earlier first.

I'm not saying an accuwedge won't solve your problem. Heck, I don't even know what they are. What I AM saying is that not first attempting to localize the issue more specifically, what you'll be doing is what we called "Easter-egging" in the Navy...you just throw stuff at it hoping it'll fix the problem.

You can do plenty first without having to invest either money or significant time.
 
On AR platforms fit between the upper and lower effects accuracy, also a different buffer system could be issue

Swapping a lower between an upper is just like pulling a bolt gun out of a factory stock and sticking it in a different stock... it can very well completely change the dynamics of the rifle. I had the same thing happen with my M1a... but there is a lot more going on there than either an AR, or a bolt gun.

How does the fit between the upper and lower affect accuracy? Just like a bolt gun? Really?
 
Can a new lower make a good load shoot bad? I don't see how
the buffer should put a smidge of pressure on the back of the bolt, if the hole for the buffer pin is out of spec it might change how the bolt closes.
Like you though I can't see it affecting groups like OP is suggesting.

ETA I suppose if the actual buffer could be somehow putting pressure in a direction that the BCG doesn't like, still seems grasping at straws though.
 
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How does the fit between the upper and lower affect accuracy? Just like a bolt gun? Really?

I was trying to make the point that changing something as significant as... a stock on a bolt gun, or a different lower on an AR... can and will change how the rifle performs. The OP's rifle is a good example. My M1a is another, for the same but different reasons.

What happens on an AR when you pull the trigger? The hammer in the lower pivots up and strikes the firing pin buried in the upper. If the upper is not as tight to the lower, or some other geometry has changed, it's quite possible the strike of the hammer will move the upper enough to affect accuracy.

I have a Colt big pin H-Bar. Just fooling around with it, I bought some of the adapter bushings that allow the big pin upper to mate to a small pin lower.... what a train wreck that was. The fit was looser than the clapped out M16A1's I used in the Army, and the accuracy... out of an H-Bar... was laughable.
 
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