Can anyone provide me with cites for this?

[hometheaterman]

I'm looking at the ATF site, but can't find it. Anyway, I know that it's illegal to buy guns with the intent of selling them for a profit. Anyway, a guy on another forum I'm on keeps saying that it's not illegal and just a typical private sale. I want to prove him wrong, as well as prove to any other individual that is unclear on the law, that they can't do this, so that they don't risk getting in trouble over it. Does anyone know the actual law that states this so I can cite it?

 

[Librarian]

Anyway, I know that it's illegal to buy guns with the intent of selling them for a profit.

I don't believe that the above, as stated, is accurate.

What IS the case is that a person cannot be 'in the business' without an FFL. - -18 USC 922 (a)(1)

(a) It shall be unlawful -
(1) for any person -
(A) except a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or
licensed dealer, to engage in the business of importing,
manufacturing, or dealing in firearms,

and 'engaged in the business' is 18 USC 921 (a)(21)

(21) The term "engaged in the business" means -
(21) The term "engaged in the business" means -
...
(C) as applied to a dealer in firearms, as defined in section
921(a)(11)(A), a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to
dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with
the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the
repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall
not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or
purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal
collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his
personal collection of firearms;
(D) as applied to a dealer in firearms, as defined in section
921(a)(11)(B), a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to
engaging in such activity as a regular course of trade or
business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit,
but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional
repairs of firearms, or who occasionally fits special barrels,
stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms;

 

[dogtown tom]

hometheaterman I'm looking at the ATF site, but can't find it. Anyway, I know that it's illegal to buy guns with the intent of selling them for a profit. Anyway, a guy on another forum I'm on keeps saying that it's not illegal and just a typical private sale. I want to prove him wrong, as well as prove to any other individual that is unclear on the law, that they can't do this, so that they don't risk getting in trouble over it. Does anyone know the actual law that states this so I can cite it?

Well....he IS correct that there is no Federal law prohibiting you from buying a gun and later selling it for profit. If you buy a gun off GunBroker or this forum and next week a friend admires it and offers to buy...you most certainly can sell it to him for a profit. If you buy ten guns off GunBroker or this forum and sell them at a garage sale that weekend....your dealing in guns and risking a hefty fine or jail time.

There is no minimum number of firearms one can sell to be considered "engaged in the business" It could be as little as ONE.

What IS illegal is the repetitive buying and selling of firearms for profit as opposed to enhancing your collection. ATF may consider this as engaging in the business of dealing in firearms. And that requires a Federal Firearms License.

http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf

THE GUN CONTROL ACT OF 1968
TITLE 18, UNITED STATE CODE, CHAPTER 44
§ 921 Definitions.(11) The term "dealer" means (A)
any person engaged in the business of
selling firearms at wholesale or retail,
(B) any person engaged in the business
of repairing firearms or of making or fitting
special barrels, stocks, or trigger
mechanisms to firearms, or (C) any
person who is a pawnbroker. The term
"licensed dealer" means any dealer
who is licensed under the provisions of
this chapter.


(C) as applied to a dealer in firearms,
as defined in section
921(a)(11)(A), a person who devotes
time, attention, and labor to dealing
in firearms as a regular course of
trade or business with the principal
objective of livelihood and profit
through the repetitive purchase and
resale of firearms, but such term
shall not include a person who
makes occasional sales, exchanges,
or purchases of firearms for the enhancement
of a personal collection or
for a hobby, or who sells all or part of
his personal collection of firearm

(22) The term "with the principal
objective of livelihood and profit"
means that the intent underlying the
sale or disposition of firearms is predominantly
one of obtaining livelihood
and pecuniary gain, as opposed to
other intents, such as improving or liquidating
a personal firearms collection...

§ 922 Unlawful acts.
(a) It shall be unlawful—
(1) for any person—
(A) except a licensed importer, licensed
manufacturer, or licensed
dealer, to engage in the business of
importing, manufacturing, or dealing
in firearms, or in the course of such
business to ship, transport, or receive
any firearm in interstate or foreign
commerce;...

 

[hometheaterman]

Thanks.

 

[Art Eatman]

As near as I can tell, the key is "engaged in business". As a generality, there is a time factor.

For instance as a non-FFL, you can get a table at a gunshow and sell from your own collection. You can buy for your collection. No problem. HOWEVER, if you take a gun as a trade-in, or buy a gun, and then sell it for a profit at that same show, you COULD be accused of being engaged in business. My understanding is that such has happened.

If you buy a gun at a show, table or no table, and take it home, no problem. You can then later on change your mind and decide to sell it. Given the nature of the world we live in, however, I don't think I'd change my mind such that I offered it for sale at a profit at the next gunshow. Not from a table, anyway. I think you'd definitely be open to the same accusation. But if you take it home, shoot it, and decide that you don't really like it, it's quite normal to get rid of a safe-queen.

 

[Black Knight]

What is wrong or illegal with making a profit??? It is that profit that allows you to buy a better gun, something else you need or want, or to save for something more important later on.

 

[jhallrv4]

Don't forget the "straw purchase" aspect. If you bought a gun, not for yourself, but for another, that is a "straw purchase", and the only person that can do that is Mayor Bloomberg of New York City.

Jeff

 

[Art Eatman]

No, jhall, forget straw purchase. It's totally irrelevant to the issue of this thread.

Black Knight, it's not an issue of profit, as such. The issue is buying (or taking a trade-in) at a show and then reselling at that same show. That has been seen as cause to determine that one is therefore engaged in the business of buying and selling firearms. The usual presumption is that one would not resell in the absence of a profit.

The gunshow thing arises because buying from an individual FTF somewhere in your city and then reselling it FTF to another individual in that city is an event which can not be known to an outsider such as an agent of BATFE. That's why they watch table action at gunshows.

 

[CHEVELLE427]

I TRADE MOST OF MINE FOR SOMETHING ELSE,

at least if i do sell one i replace it with another.



and most all of the time i take a loss just to get the gun im wanting at that time

 

[Black Knight]

Thanks Art. I was of the understanding that the gun was purchased or traded for one day and then sometime later was resold for the profit. The same day deal would make me question it a little though. Is it someone in the business (unlicensed dealer) or some hobbyist looking for the next deal?

 

[Art Eatman]

The crux is the BATFE view as to whether or not it's "doing business". An individual might consider himself a hobbyist, but his opinion is irrelevant to the view of an agent. IOW, the agent says, "Business!"; the individual says, "Hobby!" and then it's up to a judge and jury.

Which is why, if you get a table at a gunshow to sell off some safe queens, you don't take a trade-in on one of them and then resell it later that day or the next day at that show. For you it miight be a one-time event. For the agent? How does he know at that time that it's your first and only planned gunshow?

You may have no intent to do business. You may have no intent to break any law. Regardless, because of the way laws are written and how they are subject to individual interpretation by a BATFE agent on the scene, you and your lawyer and your emptying billfold get to talk to the judge.

 

[CHEVELLE427]

i see the same guys all the time that have no FFL and has a table at all shows in 75 sq miles of me, buy and sell also noticed some c&r guns for sell at his table also.guess it is a matter of time before he gets caught, or is already on there round up list

i would think that would be a red flag as dealing in guns without a ffl

 

[XxWINxX94]

Interesting, so if you buy/sell guns constantly the ATF could come looking for an FFL?

I guess I have another question. How would they know if your buying/selling if you only do private sales (Not through FFL)?

 

[CHEVELLE427]

I guess I have another question. How would they know if your buying/selling if you only do private sales (Not through FFL)?

IF YOU PLACE AN ADD IN THE PAPER ALL THE TIME WOULD BE ONE WAY.

ATF COULD SEND AN UNDERCOVER KID OR AGENT TO COME BUY ONE AND LET YOU TALK ABOUT ALL YOU HAVE SOLD . That is how they catch the STOP AND ROBS selling smokes and beer to minors. im sure they can or have done the same with gun sells.

this was my first thought when i had a guy BUY and SKS from me, after the deal he went talking about how he was on probation and wanted a hand gun but Couldn't own one .

i handed him his money back as i still had the SKS in my hands .. he wanted to know why so i told him.

long story short he got mouthy about how he has a receipt
(he hand wrote out for both of us)
and he wanted his gun. i said i cant do it deals off, THEN he said =====READY FOR IT==== DO WE NEED TO GET THE LAW INVOLVED .

i said i guess we do he left but i still called the law===============HE GOT 8 MONTHS IN THE SLAMMER FOR IT======

 

[Art Eatman]

XxWin, ATF agents easily wander through a gunshow and determine who's a dealer and who isn't. No 4473 on a sale? Not a dealer. So, they'll watch a table off and on through the day. It's not rocket science...

Enough wandering. Seems to me the opening question's been answered...