Can I use FFG in my BP revolver?

[K.A.T.]

I have a 50 cal. Hawkins that I have tried several different powders and bullets finding my best load. I have some 777 powder and some Pyrodex RS, both are FFG. I'm not going to use them in my rifle, can I shoot these powders in my Colt 1860? If so, do you use the same amount as FFF?

 

[Old Fuff]

Yes you can use FFg black powder in your 1860 Army replica. You can't overload the cylinder and still get a ball or bullet in. Try about 22 grains (by weight) and a .454" round ball. Measure Pyrodex by volumn, not weight.

 

[O.S.O.K.]

ffg vs fffg

ffg is just a coarser and therefore slower burning grade - those two substitutes are constructed to mimick the burning rate of ffg black powder.

You can safely use them in your 1860. You just won't get as much velocity and it will most likely burn a bit dirtier.

I would go with 30 grains myself. Less will shoot quite high due to the lower velocity.

 

[rifle]

About the 777 powder. FFg 777 is "hotter" than FFFg blackpowder and has a quick ignition. It will wreck your cap&baller if you don't load the 777 lighter than you would black powder. Try 15gr. in a 36cal. and 22gr. in a 44cal. and see if that works for you.

 

[mykeal]

777 should be loaded at 10 to 15% less by volume than black powder; 30 gr fffg 777 is about the equivalent of 33-35 gr fffg black powder.

However, rifle:

It will wreck your cap&baller if you don't load the 777 lighter

What do you mean by "wreck"?

 

[O.S.O.K.]

good point

and K.A.T., you don't mention the type of 1860 - if it has a brass frame then by all means start lower and stay away from the larger charges. If its a steel framed model then you are fine.

And do understand what Mykeal is saying about the 777 - you can use too much of it.

 

[BigG]

Fuff - tell me you are fading. Your English is not so good where you tell him to use 22 grains by weight and that Pyrodex should be loaded by volume.

Your mind is the second thing to go Fuff - you need to worry about #3.

 

[K.A.T.]

The 1860 is a Colt Sign. Series, she is shooting 2 to 3'' groups at 25 yds. I am using Goex FFF,30 grains measuring by volume,lube pills,454 ball. Is 30 grains of goex to much? I do understand about 777 being more powerful than blackpowder and having to be reduced.The Pyrodex can replace Goex grain for grain, is this correct?

 

[Old Fuff]

Fuff - tell me you are fading. Your English is not so good where you tell him to use 22 grains by weight and that Pyrodex should be loaded by volume.

Well I admit that the gears are slipping a bit, but what I said was...

Yes you can use FFg black powder in your 1860 Army replica. You can't overload the cylinder and still get a ball or bullet in. Try about 22 grains (by weight) and a .454" round ball.

But then I added...

Measure Pyrodex by volume, not weight.

Both statements are correct - I think.

 

[mykeal]

30 gr fffg Pyrodex P is not too much, although you would probably tighten up those groups a little with 25 gr. Not much, but some, perhaps.

Pyrodex and black powder are close, for all practical purposes they are equivalent measured by volume. That is NOT true if measured by weight, but I don't know anyone who does that.

 

[rifle]

Hello. When I made a statement about FFFg 777 and it's ability to "wreck" a cap&baller revolver "wreck" was meant to mean "broken". I've seen the recoil shields ring on Colts(the ring on the frame behind the cylinder) peened in by the cylinder when FFFg 777 was used. I know a friend that used 28gr. FFFg 777(volume) in an 1860 Colt Pietta and snaped both frame pins that hold the barrel. His wedge was gettin loose but..... The wedges and the rear of the barrels wedge slot takes a beating from FFFg 777 too.
The 777 powder is a hot sporting powder and it's graph of the peak pressure goes up a good bit faster and further than regular black powder. Thirty grains volume regular black is a hot load in a cap&baller but won't wear it out anywhere as soon as 777 powder. They say...reduce 777 by 15% compared to blackpowder. OK, so if FFFg 777 is hotter than FFg 777 which do you reduce 15%? (The FFg 777 is hotter than black powder FFFg) See two "f's" for 777 and three"f's" for black? How much hotter does that make the FFFg 777 compared to FFg black? How much hotter compared to FFFg black? The 777 powder has a different reaction to small increases in volume too. Five grains more blackpowder makes a difference but five more grains 777 makes more difference. An article I read by a knowegeble writer in a gun magazine tested 777 in 45Colt cal. in SAA's. Thirty grains FFg 777 in the cartridge was a good stout load. The author stated that when that load was increased by five grains(volume) it increased the load disapportionately. The author used a stronger gun for the five grain increased load and stated that he wouldn't want to shoot that 35gr. load from an Italian clone but would want a stronger gun for it. Thirty grains was alright but just a five grain increase to thirty five grains got too hot. Kinda reminds me of the way smokeless powder works.
Anyway....my opinion is that FFg 777 in reduced loads(15% at least) will not break a cap&baller but....FFFg 777 should not be used in a cap&baller at all especially a Colt but not Remington either. A person may use FFFg in a strong cap&baller to get a hotter hunting load but it would be hard on the gun. I'd say 15-18 gr. FFg 777 in a 36cal. and 20-22 gr. in a 44cal. unless it's a Ruger. A Ruger could take more 777 without shortening the longevity of the gun I'd guess. I've tried both FFg and FFFg 777 powder in cap&ballers. I didn't fire too many FFFg loads at all since it's not difficult to feel that the FFFg is too hot. The FFFg can be used but....it'll wreck a cap&baller sooner than later. My opinion anyway.

 

[K.A.T.]

Thanks guys, I think I will forget about using the 777.

 

[mykeal]

Rifle, thanks for the thoughts. Important stuff, that.

I was concerned that "wreck" might be interpreted by some as "explode", as in catastrophically destroy the cylinder, the classic result of using smokeless powder in a bp revolver. I'm not aware of that ever happening as a result of using 777 in any amount or granulation.

I've been using 3f 777 almost exclusively for about 2 years and have seen no damage to any of my Colts, especially a Uberti 2nd Model Dragoon. I load for accuracy, which pretty much limits my loads to between 20 and 25 gr of 3f 777, depending on the gun. The Dragoon a bit more, usually 30, but never more than 33, and an 1862 Colt Police uses 17. Well, I did use 40 in the Dragoon once, just FTHOI, and I won't ever do it again. I have no idea where the rounds went as accuracy was not-existent.

There is no question 777 is hotter than regular bp, and the rule of thumb of 15% seems about right to me. There is also a good body of chrono evidence to support that figure. As for 2f vs 3f, I'd suggest that, if one wants or needs to use 777, then he or she should use the same granulation that one would use in black powder, but 15% less. Thus for a load equivalent to 30 gr FFg black powder one should use no more than 26 gr FFg 777, and for 30 gr FFFg black powder, 26 gr FFFg 777.

If it became necessary to use a different granulation then be guided by what you would do in switching granulations of black powder first, then factor in the 15%. FFg can be used in place of FFFg as it burns slightly slower and produces a little bit less peak pressure, so I'd suggest using a 15% reduced load of FFg 777, if necessary. However, going the other way, using FFFg black powder in place of FFg black powder, some folks like to reduce the load a bit, say 30 gr down to 28 gr. in that case one should reduce by 15% X 28 gr = 4 gr, to 24 gr FFFg 777.

I use 777 for two reasons: it's easier to clean and it's much easier to obtain. I have recently found a good nearby (50 miles one way) source for retail Goex black powder, however, and will be using it more often in the next year - I do prefer how it smokes and smells. But 777 is a fine product and although Goex is now more readily available to me I won't abandon it altogether; it will remain my standard for evaluating performance of my bp guns.

 

[rifle]

Mykeal, Glad to hear your guns are still fine after using the FFFg777. I don't see the benifits of using FFFg 777 over FFg 777 in a cap&baller but you must. I guess some factor has to account for the fit and age of the guns figuring the 777 use. I use black almost exclusively because I'm addicted to it. I do use FFg 777 also at times just to try something new and....use something that doesn't worry me if I'm too tired to clean until the next day.
I shot a 2 in. group at 40 yards once with FFg 777 in an 1851 Colt.