OP
OP
1KPerDay
Member
Yep did all that. Thanks. I will see how to check firing pin protrusion
can light/improper firing pin strikes CAUSE hangfires/misfires/squibs? .22lr
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But it can cause a misfire. Just something else to check, although it sounds like he has done that already.
Schwing
Member
I know I posted this in your other thread but there is no mechanical malfunction that I can conceive of that would cause a squib in a semi auto (short of something almost impossible like a barrel that narrows drastically). Stove-pipes, misfires or other types of jams yes but squibs... Never. I know this doesn't help your troubleshooting much but it is completely feasible that you are dealing with more than one issue.
If you would like to PM me your info, I can send you some pre-panic ammo. I have several boxes of Federal, CCI and American Eagle that are pre-panic. These are from boxes that I have dipped from and have never had an issue of any kind. I know it won't tell you what the problem is but it would at least rule out the ammo.
If you would like to PM me your info, I can send you some pre-panic ammo. I have several boxes of Federal, CCI and American Eagle that are pre-panic. These are from boxes that I have dipped from and have never had an issue of any kind. I know it won't tell you what the problem is but it would at least rule out the ammo.
Walt Sherrill
Member
If the gun has enough mechanical force to start the chemical interactions (by causing the primer to do it's thing), the ammo should go boom unless the chemistry is at fault. (That means something not right about the powder, primer, or how the primer material was placed inside the base of the round.
(I can understand how a damaged firing pin, for example, might not ignite a primer, but I don't see how a mechanical issue could cause a SQUIB round...)
Said differently, I don't understand how anything mechanical can interfere with what is fundamentally a chemical process -- if the mechanical part is working right, the chemical process is what's screwed up.
I don't think I've ever experienced a squib load in a .22 -- but have had plenty of rounds that didn't go bang when the firing pin or striker hit the cartridge base. with enough force to deeply indent the primer area...
(I can understand how a damaged firing pin, for example, might not ignite a primer, but I don't see how a mechanical issue could cause a SQUIB round...)
Said differently, I don't understand how anything mechanical can interfere with what is fundamentally a chemical process -- if the mechanical part is working right, the chemical process is what's screwed up.
I don't think I've ever experienced a squib load in a .22 -- but have had plenty of rounds that didn't go bang when the firing pin or striker hit the cartridge base. with enough force to deeply indent the primer area...
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OP
OP
1KPerDay
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Well it is definitely strange I can tell you that. I have detail stripped it again and cleaned it thoroughly again and I'm going to put the OEM trigger and sear back in it and shoot the same ammo just for my own sanity. Will report results
OP
OP
1KPerDay
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Does anyone know the specifications of the firing pin protrusion? I have calipers and a plunger type gauge on the back end of the caliper that might be able to measure the protrusion.
243winxb
Member
No idea on the specifications of the firing pin protrusion. The pin just needs to stop a bit short of the barrel face.
Looks like the firing pin is of the inertia type. I don't see a lighter pin being a good idea. Like this
" Less deformation of the casing " = Light pin strike, less energy is what this means to me.
After the hammer looses contact with the back of the pin, the pin has to travel forward on its own, maintaining enough energy and velocity to set off the priming compound.
The Ruger's hammer main spring is a lot stronger than needed, and may overcome the light pin? Maybe?
Looks like the firing pin is of the inertia type. I don't see a lighter pin being a good idea. Like this
" Less deformation of the casing " = Light pin strike, less energy is what this means to me.
After the hammer looses contact with the back of the pin, the pin has to travel forward on its own, maintaining enough energy and velocity to set off the priming compound.
The Ruger's hammer main spring is a lot stronger than needed, and may overcome the light pin? Maybe?
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243winxb
Member
From Midwayusa https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1...iring-pin-ruger-mark-i-mark-ii-mark-iii-22-45
Seen more than a few times when after market parts screw up a perfectly good firearm. I just buy factory new spring and this normally fixes problems.
Seen more than a few times when after market parts screw up a perfectly good firearm. I just buy factory new spring and this normally fixes problems.
OP
OP
1KPerDay
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Factory springs all around other than the disconnector plunger spring which came with the VQ trigger. Factory mainspring, factory recoil spring, factory rebound spring and plunger, steel firing pin.
After a thorough detail strip and clean, I installed the OEM trigger and sear, and OEM disconnector plunger and spring. Fired 10 mags of Fed 325 36 grain plated bulk, including the remainder of the aforementioned box and part of a new box from the same lot. 3 duds/misfires, several 'light rounds' and one hangfire. Immediately fired 10 mags of CCI SV from 2 different boxes/lots=no issues.
I can't believe it's purely ammo related but this test seems to bear that out. I'm interested to see if replacing the upper and trying this same lot of ammo will show any improvement. If it doesn't, I guess I have a spare to build.
After a thorough detail strip and clean, I installed the OEM trigger and sear, and OEM disconnector plunger and spring. Fired 10 mags of Fed 325 36 grain plated bulk, including the remainder of the aforementioned box and part of a new box from the same lot. 3 duds/misfires, several 'light rounds' and one hangfire. Immediately fired 10 mags of CCI SV from 2 different boxes/lots=no issues.
I can't believe it's purely ammo related but this test seems to bear that out. I'm interested to see if replacing the upper and trying this same lot of ammo will show any improvement. If it doesn't, I guess I have a spare to build.
OP
OP
1KPerDay
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Yes, no. Thanks
OP
OP
1KPerDay
Member
did, see above
Walt Sherrill
Member
A number of the responses above MIGHT explain misfires, but none of them seem to address the squibs... (in which the primer ignites, but the powder doesn't -- at least doesn't fully.)
A more likely explanation -- the luck of the draw with bad rounds being fired in one gun (which might have a weak spring causing misfires), but bad ammo causing the squibs.
A more likely explanation -- the luck of the draw with bad rounds being fired in one gun (which might have a weak spring causing misfires), but bad ammo causing the squibs.
deadeye dick
Member
For what it's worth, iv'e had a lot of trouble with the green Remington thunderbolt bulk 500 rnd. boxes. Light loads and no fires, on the no fires I reloaded it in the chamber and it fired the second time around. Howie
If you get a good dent in the rim from the firing pin, the pin or the hammer isn't the problem. I shoot quite a bit of .22 LR and have disassembled many of the rounds that fail to fire and found that the reason they didn't go off was a primer issue.
Usually the primer wasn't dispersed completely around the rim and was only present in a portion of the rim as seen from looking into the case with the powder removed. The round failed to fire because the point on the rim circumference that was struck had no priming compound at the particular location. This is why "dud" rounds often will fire if re-chambered and the firing pin strikes in a different local thus just "bad luck".
Less common is the priming compound is completely missing or didn't disperse around the rim and could be seen as a disk of compound mixed in with the powder.
I did have a problem with light firing pin strikes on a Browning Buckmark I'd shot a lot for many years. The gunsmith I took it to said the firing pin measured a bit short so he made it a bit longer with a judicious application of torch and hammer to fix the problem.
Usually the primer wasn't dispersed completely around the rim and was only present in a portion of the rim as seen from looking into the case with the powder removed. The round failed to fire because the point on the rim circumference that was struck had no priming compound at the particular location. This is why "dud" rounds often will fire if re-chambered and the firing pin strikes in a different local thus just "bad luck".
Less common is the priming compound is completely missing or didn't disperse around the rim and could be seen as a disk of compound mixed in with the powder.
I did have a problem with light firing pin strikes on a Browning Buckmark I'd shot a lot for many years. The gunsmith I took it to said the firing pin measured a bit short so he made it a bit longer with a judicious application of torch and hammer to fix the problem.
OP
OP
1KPerDay
Member
I've pulled a number of bullets also. I'm convinced that The primary strike flakes the priming compound off where it hits (if it doesn't ignite) so pulling it after a dud gives a false indicator of the cause. The only way to really tell if that's the issue is to pull a number of them before the primer strike and examine the priming compound. And I don't really feel like doing that again. Shot it again today and had 5 misfires with Remington golden bullets which are exceptionally reliable in two of my other guns. Something is still wrong IMO.
Under some pretty uncommon circumstances, the firing pin can cause a "squib." What happens is that a firing pin that is too light, a firing pin spring that is too weak, or a short firing pin (or maybe something else) can cause a light blow and slow or only partial primer ignition. The defect is usually masked by the charge going off and is not noticed by the shooter, but the erratic ignition results in malfunctions or inaccuracy.
Jim
Jim
Walt Sherrill
Member
Jim K said:
Misfires (rounds that don't go bang) can certainly be caused by a firing pin not hitting the rim forcefully/deeply enough; and, often, when the failed round is given a second chance (with the firing pin/striker hits a different area on the rim), it will go bang.
IF there was -- to use your phrase -- "slow or only partial primer ignition" (leading to a squib and a round lodged in the barrel), the cause is almost certainly a primer problem rather than a firing pin problem.
Otherwise,it would mean that after a firing pin/striker hit that was strong enough to START primer ignition, the process then continued at a slower pace than usual or stopped on its own. That doesn't seem likely unless there is a gap in primer material or an area that is too thinly coated in the .22 cartridge rim.
OP
OP
1KPerDay
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That is the only thing that makes sense to me at this point
Walt Sherrill
Member
Are we all using "squib" in the same way? As I've understood and used the term, the term describes a round that fired, but a bullet that did NOT exit the barrel.
While squibs are certainly possible with any loaded cartridge, it's certainly not a widely experienced things with .22 rounds -- despite all of the junk ("bulk") .22 available.
While squibs are certainly possible with any loaded cartridge, it's certainly not a widely experienced things with .22 rounds -- despite all of the junk ("bulk") .22 available.
From an earlier thread about this pistol, after finding about all the things the OP has done, I started thinking about this from the approach given by 243Winxb.
Like centerfire primers, where the anvil has to be seated on something firm for the primer to ignite, basically the same is true for rim fires.The rim has to be firmly seated when it is hit or the energy of the strike is dissipated. I wonder what the headspace is for the OP's pistol. If the headspace is excessive I believe that the rim will not be fully pressed against the barrel and that could cause failures to ignite. You could have good firing pin protrusion but that would not mean much if the firing pin is only hitting the rim lightly.
I have heard that damaged barrel faces cause ignition problems with rim fire cartridges, have not experienced that yet. I have had problems with short firing pins, and ignition reliability improved after I cleaned all the oil out of firing pin channels with my M46 and M41 S&W pistol. Older ammunition, like 90's ammunition, still give the occasional failure to eject or failure to fire, which I attribute to weak ignition and insensitive priming compound.
The more you shoot rimfires, the more you discover that yes, light firing pin strikes will give squibs, failures to fire, failures to eject, weak ejection. It all has to do with primer sensitivity and the need for a fast, hard, firing pin strike to get the compound burning.
This chart, which came from a report exploring lead free priming compounds, clearly shows ignition probability based on impact energy. This was about moisture content and ignition, with ignition being bad, from a manufacturing viewpoint. Green would mean no ignition, red ignition, and the bars in between, probability levels of ignition. At least that is how I read the thing. I understand from the report that this is actually a three dimensional chart, so it would have been interesting to see the contours. But as you can see, as the impact energy goes up, so does the probability of ignition, even with increasing moisture. But also, ignition is probabilistic. At marginal energy inputs, the compound may ignite, may not ignite, not ignite fully. That ought to tell you that a firearm ignition system needs to be robust, and that primer characteristics have to tailored the energy outputs of firearm ignition systems.
Which is another reason I am not a fan of reduced power mainsprings.
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