TexasShooter59
Member
Title says it. I found enough range brass to fill up a quart size ziploc bag. Brass is mostly (or all?) FC or LC headstamped.
EDIT: see post #3 for more specifics
EDIT: see post #3 for more specifics
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Can M1 brass be used for 30-06?
- Thread starter TexasShooter59
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Squeaky Wheel
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M1 shoots 30-06. Are you asking if M1 brass can be loaded outside normal loadings used for M1?
TexasShooter59
Member
Well, I realize that the M1 shoots 30-06; I am wondering if you have to do anything special, like maybe small base dies, special trimming, etc. to get it sized properly for a 30-06 bolt gun.
Sorry for the vagueness!
Sorry for the vagueness!
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ArchAngelCD
Member.
M1 brass is 30-06 brass. Other than the possibility of the primers being staked it's the same. Just load it like you would any other brass you use for you bolt action rifle.
FROGO207
Member
In regards to the above statement that SOME military brass is thicker depends on the caliber and brass maker whether it is or not. Weigh a couple different headstamp types of commercial cases and then whatever MIL brass headstamps you have. The ones that weigh the most have the smallest internal capacity. It could be thicker sidewalls or thicker web but that really does not matter. Just work up a separate load if you have thicker brass to be safe. If it is thinner either use the same load you use for your regular loads and understand it will have a reduced velocity or work up one with the same velocity. Good find BTW.
USSR
Member
Not really. Military 7.62x51 brass is constructed heavier than commercial .308 brass, so a lot of people assume that .30-06 is as well. It is not. In fact, commercial Federal .30-06 brass is heavier and has less case capacity than USGI .30-06 brass. So, just begin with the starting load listed in any reloading manual and you will not need to reduce your charge weight for any .30-06 brass.
Don
Zeke/PA
Member
Usually, the military primer pockets require a "swaging" operation because of the origional crimped/staked in primers of the same.
A tool for this is available as is a primer pocket reamer.
About 50 years ago, I picked up a quanity of LC (Lake City) brass that I'm still using.
A tool for this is available as is a primer pocket reamer.
About 50 years ago, I picked up a quanity of LC (Lake City) brass that I'm still using.
If the brass was shot in a GI chamber than it was ballooned when it was ejected.
With range pickups, you will find cases of all difference sizes all depending on the chamber it was fired in. Standard dies won’t be able to reduce some of these cases down enough to chamber in a well made rifle. With a bolt gun, you can always do what the neck sizing guys eventually have to do, take a mallet and beat the bolt handle down, and then get a 2X4 to knock it open again. Standard base sized range pickup brass will choke semi auto’s with match chambers .
I use small base dies. There are people who take a violent objection to small base dies, but I small base die every cartridge that I can find a small base die. I set up my dies with a Wilson type gage and I size to gage minimum. That way I am ensuring maximum interchangeability for that ammunition.
With range pickups, you will find cases of all difference sizes all depending on the chamber it was fired in. Standard dies won’t be able to reduce some of these cases down enough to chamber in a well made rifle. With a bolt gun, you can always do what the neck sizing guys eventually have to do, take a mallet and beat the bolt handle down, and then get a 2X4 to knock it open again. Standard base sized range pickup brass will choke semi auto’s with match chambers .
I use small base dies. There are people who take a violent objection to small base dies, but I small base die every cartridge that I can find a small base die. I set up my dies with a Wilson type gage and I size to gage minimum. That way I am ensuring maximum interchangeability for that ammunition.
No objections from me. I have been small base sizing my 223 Remington for ARs for a while. I recently got an M1A and a 308 M1 and have decided to do the same fro them. One stuck case on chambering cures you quickly on the supposed negatives of small base sizing.
While I have not had an issue with the 30-06 M1s, I may get a small base die for them. I am not interested in segregating ammunition for the M1s.
TexasShooter59
Member
Thanks for all the replies - I got the answers I was after. I'm not a stranger to crimped primers thanks to .223/5.56!
ranger335v
Member
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I've used lots of surplus 30-06 cases since '65. Have no idea of what it was fired in but the same old set of Lyman dies I started with has sufficed for a half dozen or so rifles quite well. Don't understand the idea that it's difficult to size machine gun cases. Nor the popular thought that all autoloaders require small base dies, their chambers are usually cut with the same reamers as any others.
USSR
Member
It's highly unlikely that any military .30-06 brass you've gotten in the last half century were machinegun fired. However, if you've ever dealt with 7.62x51 brass fired in a M60 with a large chamber, you would understand perfectly. After I got a batch of those, I swore I would never accept machinegun fired 7.62x51 again even if they were given to me.
Don
You are incorrect regarding military 30-06 brass, as Sierra, Nosler and Lyman, among others, state in their reloading manuals.
There is so much legendary "truth" about military brass (one way or the other) running around out there,
that I just take the time to determine a relative water weight and go from there.
That said, take the following 308Win brass data:
Lapua: 55.61 grains
Winchester: 57.70 grains
Lake City: 54.77 grains
Federal: 54.98 grains
From min (LC) to max (Win), there is a difference of slightly less than three grains in water capacity.
Maxing out w/ 45gr of IMR4895 and a 168gr Sierra SMK at 2.800" OAL:
Lake City brass gives me 60,300psi/2700fps (right at CIP MAX)
Winchester brass drops that to 53,300psi/2,621fps
That's about 1.7gr of difference in powder for equal pressure/velocity between the two cases
...about 3%
that I just take the time to determine a relative water weight and go from there.
That said, take the following 308Win brass data:
Lapua: 55.61 grains
Winchester: 57.70 grains
Lake City: 54.77 grains
Federal: 54.98 grains
From min (LC) to max (Win), there is a difference of slightly less than three grains in water capacity.
Maxing out w/ 45gr of IMR4895 and a 168gr Sierra SMK at 2.800" OAL:
Lake City brass gives me 60,300psi/2700fps (right at CIP MAX)
Winchester brass drops that to 53,300psi/2,621fps
That's about 1.7gr of difference in powder for equal pressure/velocity between the two cases
...about 3%
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There is so much legendary "truth" about military brass (one way or the other) running around out there,
that I just take the time to determine a relative water weight and go from there.
That said, consider the following 308Win brass data:
Lapua: 55.61 grains
Winchester: 57.70 grains
Lake City: 54.77 grains
Federal: 54.98 grains
From min (LC) to max (Win), a difference of slightly less than three grains water capacity.
Maxing 45gr of IMR4895 under a 168gr Sierra SMK at a standard 2.800" OAL:
Lake City brass gives me 60,300psi/2700fps (CIP Pressure MAX)
Winchester brass drops that to a leisurely 53,300psi/2,621fps
In the end, dropping about 1.7gr of powder (~3%) in the LC brass gives equivalent pressure/25fps lower velocity.
I'm sure there's a rule in there somewhere......
that I just take the time to determine a relative water weight and go from there.
That said, consider the following 308Win brass data:
Lapua: 55.61 grains
Winchester: 57.70 grains
Lake City: 54.77 grains
Federal: 54.98 grains
From min (LC) to max (Win), a difference of slightly less than three grains water capacity.
Maxing 45gr of IMR4895 under a 168gr Sierra SMK at a standard 2.800" OAL:
Lake City brass gives me 60,300psi/2700fps (CIP Pressure MAX)
Winchester brass drops that to a leisurely 53,300psi/2,621fps
In the end, dropping about 1.7gr of powder (~3%) in the LC brass gives equivalent pressure/25fps lower velocity.
I'm sure there's a rule in there somewhere......
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USSR
Member
2zulu1,
I can point you to a lot of things in print that are just plain wrong. Rather than just take someone's word for it, take a Federal .30-06 case and a USGI .30-06 case, weigh them and measure them for case capacity. You will see for yourself.
Don
USSR
Member
Good data, MEHavey. Where guys get in trouble with .308 is: load data uses Winchester brass and they are using 7.62x51, Lapua, Federal, etc. They load the 46gr of Varget load for Winchester brass in their brass and, instant pressure problem.
Don
Don
Despite what's printed, there is plenty of actual evidence to the contrary.
Example:
http://carteach0.blogspot.com/2012/05/military-brass-is-thicker-and-heavier.html
"On average, the commercial brass was heavier than all the military. Both Lake City and the commercial were heavier than the Greek HXP military."
This has absolutely nothing to do with mil surp 30-06 (7.62x63mm) brass.
Sierra has already done that in their 5th reloading manual. Their reloading data uses commercial Federal brass. Their remarks end with;
"Loads for G.I. cases should be reduced by one to one and a half grains to compensate for their heavier construction. "
I also began loading for the 30-06 in the mid 60s and have a lot of vintage WWII and Korean War vintage headstamps and their construction is heavier than the new commercial Winchester brass I have.
Since we should remain focused on the 30-06 Garand operating system, it's only common sense and prudent as to follow the recommendations of companies with the stature of Sierra, Nosler and Lyman, to mention a few, over some internet dude who states his methods are not scientific.
Or, if the OP follows the wrong opinion, I'm sure those who offered their "outside the box" opinions will step up and pay the cost of a replacement operating rod or whatever other damage that may be caused by improper loads.
Perhaps, then, the informed gentle reader will take the information in the intended light of how different case volumes between mil-sup and various commercial 30-06 brass can significantly affect his reloading decisions, hmmmmm?
But for those who now see the effect of those differences in volume and want to make the jump to `06 brass in weight, here are some google'd comparisons:
Nosler = 181.8g
RP = 195.9g
"Super Speed" = 186.6g
FC = 203.2g
Winchester = 185.9g
LC (various dated headstamp) = 193.4g
UMC = 206.4g
Super-X = 183.1g
WW Super = 188.5g
PPU = 180.2g
Norma = 181.8
I tend to shy away from pure weight as a definitive guide to fine-line load differences.
Case in point that for `06 brass that I measured downstairs just now:
Code:
WW HXP68 AbsDiff %Diff
Full 261.4 262.5 1.1 0.42%
Empty 190.8 191.7 0.9 0.47%
Net H2O 70.6 70.8 0.2 0.28%Weight difference is not a 1-for-1 measure of Volume difference.
I would load the Win & HXP above identically and expect little variation.
And... as the shap-eyed reader might note... I'd not trust Google'd sources.
Run the water weight yourself.
.
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USSR
Member
2zulu1,
The pedestal that you put them on is in many cases much too high. For example, Sierra's Maximum Loads. I called them once, questioning a particular load being a "Maximum Load" and asking what the pressure was. Their answer? "Don't know, that's just where we decided to stop". So much for the scientific approach. 2zulu1, there's a lot to be found out that is contrary to published info, IF you are intellectually curious. There are some posters on this site who just like to confirm or disprove what others will accept without question. Once you've been on a site for awhile, you figure out who they are and in most cases can take what they say to the bank. Since you want to focus on the M1 Garand operating system (I have 3 Garands), I can say with certainty that any Garand safe load data using commercial .30-06 brass will be Garand safe with military .30-06 brass. There simply is not enough difference between them to cause a problem.
Don
I have enough inventory of mil surp 30-06 brass that I don't need to Google what others have posted. After weighing over 120 casings from various arsenals dating between 1942 and FA Match casings from 1958/1959, the statements I've stated and those published statements by Sierra, Nosler and Lyman have been verified. WRA brass from 1942 and 1955 are on the lighter end of the scale, and since HPX ammunition has taken their design from Winchester, it would stand to reason that HPX casings would also rate on the lighter end of the scale. The RA casings from 1951 I expect to average higher than you posted and the RA 1942 I anticipate will average over 200 grains.
When I have a little more time I'll post random 10 casing averages of Winchester commercial (~186grs)
vs TW 5, WRA 55, WRA 42, LC 52, LC 4 (5 casings), LC 53, SL 53, TW 42, RA 51, RA 42 (23 casings) and FA Match casings.
Only have three samples, but three Peters casings (3G 1906) weighed in at 205.6, 205.5 and 206.8 grs; the latter being the heaviest casing weighed. Doing a fast read, WRA 42 had a variance of ~15.8grs. That's a lot of weight difference for a single headstamp and I expect chamber pressure too.
All casings were weighed with an RCBS Range Master 1500 calibrated at the beginning and end of the weighing session.
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