Can You Really Prevent Unintentional Discharges?

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Jeff White said: However we're getting into some constitutional issues when we start mandating it for civilians.

That's all I was curious over, the reason why you thought it undesireable. I agree, I oppose mandating it. I'd like to see us all strive for it, but I am realistic enough to know the overwhelming majority of guys that own a gun, shoot maybe one box through it, period, and then figure they're good to go for anything that comes their way.


I'm glad to know the Army has decided its probably a good idea that an armed force should have a least a passing familiarity with how to handle arms safely.

Effectively . . . that's a debate us Jarheads and you Army Dogs can continue to have for years to come. :D
 
I have had two accidental discharges with a loaded firearm the first was with an AR-15 Many years ago. I came home one night was watching Miami Vice and tinkering with my AR. The show must have gotten good as I pulled the trigger and squeezed off a bank round. My dad came running into the room thinking I had shot up the house.
My second and last time I was out shooting a three screw Ruger .22. I was letting the hammer down and had a discharge. I have learned several lessons from these incidents.
 
We just had a Sheriff deputy "accidentially" shoot a 52 year old mother of 3 under the left eye killing her instantly. It was a sting operation in which the woman was going to buy precription meds from a serior citizen in a nursing home. As the officer approacher her car the gun went off. She was not resisting, she was not trying to flee, she was compling with instructions. The officer has publically stated it was an accident.

I'm sure all concerned wished it would not have happened. Please, lets keep out fingers off the trigger until we are ready to shoot.
 
Remember who the "civilians" are. Don't know if Jeff White was thinking as expansively as I am on this topic, but I see very little desireable in having all citizens well-drilled in gunhandling, 'cause that includes a lotta felons, petty thieves, wife-beaters and others with whom the gunny population does NOT identify or sympathize...

How does target aquisition apply to point shooting, usually associated with the need to fire immediately? You have no direct confirmation of target acqusition. What does "target acquisition" mean in this case, and when should the finger reach the trigger?

Brian Enos said it best--something about seeing as much as you need to see to know you can make the hit. For me, that's far different at 6 feet from what it is at 6 yards.

Remember, point-shooting and general un-"sighted" techniques have a bad reputation because some are grossly over-confident in the distance at which they can pull it off. Practice a bit and the hits at the end of the session make the shooter forget about all the misses. You can't consider yourself capable of PS at X yards until you can do it COLD, one shot only, no way to check the backstop and walk the next four rounds on target!
 
Of course this is only a partial solution. The real solution would be to eliminate the clearing barrels and allow the soldirs to carry loaded weapons everywhere. Still too many blissninneys in the chain of command though.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060826/ap_on_re_us/weapons_immersion


Army immerses soldiers in weaponry
By MICHAEL FELBERBAUM, Associated Press Writer Sat Aug 26, 3:14 PM ET


PETERSBURG, Va. - In the early months of the war in
Iraq, Army Spc. Paul J. Sturino was getting ready for guard duty one day when another soldier accidentally fired a bullet into his neck.

"Somehow it went off," his mother Christine Wetzel said as she recounted the official reports documenting her 21-year-old son's death on Sept. 22, 2003.

"I just think we're sending young, young people into situations that they're not ready for," she said from her home in Rice Lake, Wis. "They're inexperienced with weapons. ... Things happen and we pay the price."

The Army has begun taking steps to reduce accidental discharges through a new weapons immersion program fully implemented this year throughout the Army's 16 training facilities.

Sturino, assigned to the 101st Airborne Division based at Fort Campbell, Ky., was one of 21 soldiers killed by accidental discharges in the combat zones of Iraq and
Afghanistan since 2003, according to the Army's Combat Readiness Center. Eighty-nine others were injured.

"Losing one U.S. soldier because of a negligent discharge or not handling the weapon right is one too many," said Col. Paul Fortune, commander of the 23rd Quartermaster Brigade at Fort Lee, near Petersburg and 25 miles south of Richmond.

Under the new program, "We put the weapon in the hands of the soldier as soon as possible to give them an opportunity to be familiar with how the weapon operates," Fortune said.

Soldiers receive their M-16 rifles — and blank ammunition — on the third day of training and keep it with them for the next six to 12 weeks, depending on the length of training. The only time they do not have their weapons is when they enter chapels or clinics, or when the rifles are checked in for the weekend.

It's part of the "train as you fight" mentality that the Army hopes will keep soldiers safe.

Soldiers such as Pvt. Kenneth Dykeman, 21, of Portland, Ore., carry their gun to class, physical training and even have it nearby as they sleep. At night, Dykeman keeps his weapon under his mattress, with the rifle's magazine in his locker.

"Most likely we're going to Iraq, and when we get there, if you don't handle your weapon during training, you're going to forget," Dykeman said. "It helps you get closer to your weapon, know the characteristics, know what your rifle can do, so when you're out there in the field, you know how to keep yourself safe."

The program is significantly reducing negligent discharges, said Col. Kevin A. Shwedo, director of operations, plans and training for the Army Accessions Command. The average company used to experience about five negligent discharges every four hours. Now, he said, "if you hear a single discharge, that's a lot."

Even in the training environment, soldiers are required to keep a round of ammunition in their chambers and clear their guns before entering any building. Metal barrels filled with sand rest slanted on sandbags outside every building for soldiers to clear their weapons.

"It's a constant practice to teach them these rules and responsibilities," Fortune said before checking weapons at random in the cafeteria. "We want to teach them that there is no such thing as the front line."

In recent years, the only time soldiers at Fort Lee would see their weapons was when they practiced shooting. Commanders say the change reflects the need for soldiers to be ready to engage in the military actions in Iraq and Afghanistan.

And Wetzel, who lost her son, agrees with that logic.

"I wholly endorse more contact with those weapons under safe circumstances ... to have more exposure to that weapon and more safety training," Wetzel said, adding that both of her sons had only one week of total weapon training when they entered the Army. "It should be second nature: safety first."

It took the Army until early 2005 to "come up with enough horsepower" to implement the program, Shwedo said. Officials ran into road blocks including finding enough weapons, ammunition and supplies, and Cold War-era regulations against putting weapons on training bases, he said.

"We have got to prepare every soldier for the possibility that they would go immediately in to fight," Shwedo said.

The program is part of the Army's new initiative to make training more relevant and apply lessons learned from troops coming back from deployment.

"We save lives every day that we train soldiers how to properly handle their weapons," he said.
 
I have had three AD's YES AD's accidental discharges, no ND OR UD.

all have caused no damage to anyone, one was at a range, one was while hunting , and one was at home.

The range AD was a broken firing pin that caused a G19 to go full auto. The first shot was fine, the second cause the gun to go full auto as the tip of the firing pin had splintered and wedged the rest of the pin in the protruding state. no damage, but fun for a few seconds.

The hunting incident was taking a "sporterized" mauser off safe after carrying all thru the woods and upon moving the safety to the vertical postion it snapped all the way over to the left and fired. My hand was no where near the trigger and although the gun was pointed in a safe direction I got a serious punch in the stomach as the gun recoiled and we all went "WHOA!" I was able to recreate the event twice more on an empty chamber IF the trigger was at all touched while the safety was on, when you went to take it off safe, the safety would flip all the way over to the left and let the sear go. That gun was removed from service, I think it was later as just an action to make something, but I know the trigger and the safety were replaced.

I used to keep a loaded .45 in my brief case pre CCW with the idea I could just lock it and then make them get a warrant to look inside if asked about it. After letting it ride around in the briefcase all week and spend the nights on the nightstand. I was going to field strip and reoil it, I used to keep a box of magazines and books beside my bed and I had the pistol aimed at that when I dropped the safety, BANG. I had sent the gun to a guy who was nationally known for some extras, I had told him I was not able to pay for the usual super fancy but I needed it to work. What I got back was All that I had asked for, but you could see some of the fitting was a little quickkly done. A note in the box said he had a new smith who was learning and had used my gun as a training lesson. although the details were not pretty, all the work had been checked etc.

I was able to make that gun drop the hammer almost every time by just jostling it around in the holster. Put it in, grab it a few times against the thumb snap, pull it out and drop the safety, click. And it never grabbed the half cock. That monday I called the Smith and talked to him. I calmly explained what was happening and all I heard from him was ohh S**T ohs s**t! HE took the gun back, replaced everything, reblued it, did more than I had ever felt I was expecting and I got the pistol back in 2 weeks. I was young then, I trusted him, and did not ever think to really do the usual function tests on a gun from a "master" I do not blame him, I am lucky I was practicing safe gun skills when I operated all three of the weapons. I was smacked about the head many times when young by my mother or my father if I ever violated any of the rules when I was kid.

ALl three of my cases where from guns that malfunctioned. TWO/THIRDS took place with "fixed" or "altered" guns. the last was from a gun that has had three or four "upgraded" parts offered for it. ALL of my AD's took place with no other damage other than a bunch of magazines getting a bullet hole in them, simply because I was aiming the gun in safe direction, knowing my back stop, when the incident happened.

Guns are mechanical devices, things can break, malfunction, or your brain can just go south for a minute, BUt if you are following the four rules, hopefully the worst that will happen is you get a really scary story.


Even to this day, when I take a CCW weapon out of service, either to clean, store or change weapons, I still have a box of magazines in the bedroom that I use as a safety box. The .45 barely penetrated 6 inches of dry paper magazines.
 
"After the first couple weeks of Boot Camp, when the beatings and punishment for having a finger on a trigger, or a muzzle pointed in the wrong direction, were regular . . . we learned."

Simple Pavlovian conditioning. An individual learns that certain behaviors = PAIN, and since individuals generally want to avoid pain, it can influence behavior.

One of the first old NCO's that I met in my unit told us something I have never forgotten...

"Men, what are the 2 biggest motivating factors in human behavior?"

"Money?"

"NO"

"SEX"

"NO. PLEASURE and PAIN. Men, I can't do much to make you feel good, but I can SURE make your life PAINFUL."

And he was right.

This is a very effective training technique, however, it is looked down upon by society in general, and more often than not disapproved by commanders in the military.

"The Marines are still the only branch of the US armed forces I know of that instill the concepts we call Universal Gunhandling Skills..."

The blanket statement is simply not true, but it certainly applies on a unit by unit basis. My unit employed the same simple pavlovian conditioning techniques to modify behavior, and weapon safety is one of the big ones. AD's/ND's were very, very rare, and would get you kicked out of the unit REGARDLESS of rank. But my unit was not an average unit.

In other units, discipline and weapons handling are certainly issues, even in the corps. We would get ANGLICO support from time to time, and their discipline and weapon handling skills were...well, lacking, compared to our guys, but they aren't door kicking marines either. They were better than the typical Army support goon though.
 
Uhmm... erhh.... Jeff I'm afraid I'm gonna have to ask for a reference/cite/example on

. Of course it's possible to train enough to prevent NDs.


NukemJim
 
I came home one night was watching Miami Vice and tinkering with my AR. The show must have gotten good as I pulled the trigger and squeezed off a blank round. My dad came running into the room thinking I had shot up the house.
My second and last time I was out shooting a three screw Ruger .22. I was letting the hammer down and had a discharge. I have learned several lessons from these incidents.

OK, these were NOT ADs, they were NDs.

An "Unintentional Dicharge" (UD) occurs when the weapon is ready to fire, and possibly pointed at the target, but the operator DOES NOT INTEND for the weapon to go off (This is what the OP is talking about, where finger is on the trigger, even though the operator has no intention of disharging the firearm).

A "Negligent Discharge" is when someone does something stupid, like pulling the trigger without making absolutely sure the gun is unloaded.

And "Accidental Discharge" results from some kind of mechanical problem with the gun.

I have had one UD and an "almost" AD in my life (35 years of shooting). The UD happened at the range, when I picked up my loaded .22, put my finger on the trigger, and the gun went off. Luckily it was pointed downrange and the range was "hot". The AD was really weird. I was cleaning my Marlin 60 .22....I returned from the range, having fired until the bolt locked back (indicating the gun was empty). Was cleaning the gun, and I had worked the action once of twice. I also hade removed the magazine tube to clean and lube it. I worked the action one more time, and heard the sickening sound of a live round hitting the floor. NO idea wheere that round was "hiding". Not a big deal, as I had my finger off the trigger, and the gun was pointed in a safe direction (although I probably would "killed" my laptop).

I find it REAL easy to pick up a gun (especially ones I shoot alot) and find my trigger finger, inside the trigger guard. It's almost a natural reaction. SO, my biggest thing is that, of the 4 rules, the most important is to keep the gun pointed in a safe direction. If you do this, no one gets hurt, whether by a UD, and NG or an AD.
 
"Uhmm... erhh.... Jeff I'm afraid I'm gonna have to ask for a reference/cite/example on"

I'm an example.

I have NEVER, EVER, had an AD/ND with either pistol, revolver, or rifle that fired from the open or closed bolt position.

I attribute this to my upbringing, and training.
 
"I wholly endorse more contact with those weapons under safe circumstances ... to have more exposure to that weapon and more safety training," Wetzel said, adding that both of her sons had only one week of total weapon training when they entered the Army. "It should be second nature: safety first."


What a refreshing change for a grieving mother, instead of six-hour hunger strikes between protein shakes!
 
Uhmm... erhh.... Jeff I'm afraid I'm gonna have to ask for a reference/cite/example on

I'm an example.

I have NEVER, EVER, had an AD/ND with either pistol, revolver, or rifle that fired from the open or closed bolt position.

I attribute this to my upbringing, and training.

I was refering to a group that has been trained to such a level that no UDs have ever occurred after a "X" training.

Trying to go on an individual basis would be like trying to determine the 1/2life of a radionuclide by observing a single atom. Useless, pointless and not valid.

NukemJim
 
NukemJim,

Given that humans are fallible, there is NOTHING that can totally prevent NDs--especially if you go with a large sample set. I'm not sure where you're going with this line of reasoning though... Is there some benefit to proving that NDs won't ever be completely eliminated?

Again, I think that the key here is focusing on the 80% that DIDN'T break the rules and determining why behaved properly instead of "woe-is-meing" over the 20% that screwed up.

Clearly the training was effective--without it, a newbie will almost inevitably put finger to trigger immediately--yet 80% of the trainees didn't. Clearly SOMETHING went RIGHT in the majority of the cases.
 
The results of this study don't suprise me at the least. You can say training will correct this, but I doubt it will. Think about how many people, who have been driving for decades, say they hit the gas instead of the brake when in a stressful situation.

That is not a fair analogy. How many people routinely practice defensive driving while being extremely stressed? For those of us who depend on our shooting skills in real life situations, shooting while stressed is a common scenario.

A more apt analogy would be to ask, how many pro racecar drivers hit the gas when they mean to hit the brake?

Training, while not eliminating the problem, will reduce it enough that it is an anomoly, not an expected.
 
Jeff White posted
Of course it's possible to train enough to prevent NDs

My post was asking for a reference because I also believe that

Given that humans are fallible, there is NOTHING that can totally prevent NDs

I'm not sure where you're going with this line of reasoning though... Is there some benefit to proving that NDs won't ever be completely eliminated?

My point is that I do not believe that UDs can be eliminated by training. I've read of elite units that train extensivley but still have a policy of kicking out people that have UDs in training. If they could be trained not to have UDs why are such policies in place?

I do not know that UDs can be eliminated by training but if someone tells me they can be I want to know where this has been done.

The conventional answer to UDs is additonal training but maybe ( only maybe ) a different answer besides training is needed.

NukemJim
 
People are all different.

Some people are more trainable than others, some people are less affected by stress than others.

Again, I think the important part of this study is realizing that 80% of the trainees RESISTED doing something that is VERY natural--and it's clear that their training is what made this happen.

Focusing on why they did it right and determining how to improve the training would be far more productive than taking the 20% and saying that they prove that the training isn't foolproof.

I'll tell you one more thing I think but that isn't in the report. I'll bet that the instructors who trained those folks could easily tell you which 20% failed the test without seeing the list. ;)
 
As long as human beings are handling firearms, you're never going to totally eliminate NDs. But with proper training you can reduce them to a very small number.

What I got from the article is that it's the authors premise that no matter how much we train, people will still put their fingers on the trigger under stress. That is a cop out. People default to the level of their training under stress. You cannot make me believe that a well trained soldier or police officer will suddenly forget the hours of training and the constant repetitions the first time he has the big adrenaline dump.

It's simply not true. If it was, there would be no reason to train at all. Should we just leave those things to the very few people who are naturals at it? We wouldn't have many professionals protecting us if we did.

I've spent the majority of my adult life training combat Infantrymen and cops. It is possible to train someone to keep his/her finger off the trigger until they are ready to fire. Even under stress.

I have managed it. Many people have managed to do it. You gain nothing but safety by proper weapons handling. You don't lose anything. I cannot think of a single example where having ones finger on the trigger at the start of a possible deadly force encounter saves the soldiers/officers life and allowed them to win the fight. However, I can list many instances where proper weapons handling prevented a tragedy from occurring. I have personal experience with that.

A few years ago we were serving a warrant on a home out in the county. The informant had told us that they used the back door for normal ingress/egress and that it was heavily barricaded at night. The front door was not used and the suspects had a couch against it. The plan called for two teams. One team was to create a diversion by attempting to breach the barricaded back door. If they succeeded in breaching the door, they were going to enter and hold their position. The other team was going to breach the unfortified front door, clear the living room and turn right into the bedoom where the LSD was kept (where it could be flushed after two steps into the master bathrrom).

I was to breach the front door. We got into position undetected and before we went, I tried the door. It was unlocked. So I put the sledge down and became the number one man. I knocked on the door loudly and announced police with a search warrant. The team at the back door began atempting to breach the door. After waiting the required amount of time, I put my shoulder into the unlocked door and pushed it hard. I knew I'd have to hit it hard enough to push the couch out of the way. I got it open enough to get in, stepped over the back of the couch and came down right on top of a subject who had been sleeping on the couch and was now partially on the floor. I was very off balance trying to keep from falling on him, He awoke to the light from the 6v Surefire mounted on my M4 blinding him. The rest of the team swept around me, cleared the living room and moved into the bedroom catching the suspect heading for the bathroom with his stash of LSD. The last man in the stack helped me up and cuffed the suspect who was sleeping on the couch. If I had the safety off and my finger on the trigger, I have no doubt a round would have went off when I got tangled up with suspect. There was a nice adrenaline surge when I ended up hand to hand with a suspect I wasn't aware of. It wasn't that I am an execptional person that allowed me to deal with that situation, I'm certainly not. It was the fact that I was following a good SOP and had trained for the situation that saved the situation from becoming a tragedy. You won't rise to the occassion, you will default to your training under stress.

Jeff
 
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