Can't get light loads to work in revolvers

[plinky]

I have a problem. I have never gotten "target loads" to shoot well in my revolvers. My first solo handloads (20 years ago) were Unique behind 240 SWC in .44 mag. The results were dirty and dismal. I blamed the powder. Then I tried Bullseye and the results were cleaner but still not very accurate. I blamed cast bullets in general.

Then I got some W296 and loaded jacketed bullets and the results were great, better than factory ammo. Even the cast SWCs shoot pretty well with W296. I pretty much gave up on target loads.

Which leads me to wonder why I can't get moderate loads to shoot well. I came to think of Unique as junk but I see that it has many fans here and Bullseye is a standard for this type of load. A possibility that just occurred to me is the crimp. I have always used the same crimp on all loads, that being a fairly heavy roll crimp. Perhaps these light loads do not like a heavy crimp? How do you crimp yours?

I honestly would like to enjoy some pleasant target shooting if I could get these loads to work better. Any ideas?

 

[.38 Special]

Well, let's see...

As far as the dirt, there are two issues. First is the fact that Unique and Bullseye were extremely dirty powders. Bullseye was even referred to as "flammable dirt". Ten or so years back they changed formulations and both powders now burn much more cleanly, although still not as cleanly as, say, Winchester 231. The second issue is that powders do like to burn at certain pressures. If you don't get the load up to that pressure, you'll have a lot of unburned powder and various other junk left over. For instance, when I use 6 grains of Unique in the .44 Special I'll get unburned bits of powder all over my hands. At 7.5 grains, no such problem.

Accuracy is a whole 'nother ball of wax. One thing you almost have to do prior to switching to cast bullets is clean every last molecule of jacket fouling out of the bore -- and it's there, even if you can't see it. I've never heard a good explanation, but it's rare to find a gun that will handle cast bullets accurately after having been used with jacketed bullets.

Moreover, there are things you can get away with when using jacketed bullets that you cannot with cast. If your cylinder throats are a tad undersized, jacketed bullets will often work fine but lead bullets will not be happy. Same goes for bore condition: an uneven, lumpy bore with constrictions will often do well with jacketed bullets but not so well with lead. "Hardcore" cast bullet shooters slug the bore and measure chamber mouths. At the least, you should know your chamber mouth dimension and use bullets of that diameter or up to .001" smaller.

Finally, you may find that most commercially available cast bullets are very hard. This works well for high pressures but often not as well for lower pressures. It may pay to find or cast somewhat softer projectiles. "Even the cast SWCs shoot pretty well with W296" is a clue that it may indeed be a hardness issue. If you are getting enough pressure to obdurate the bullet then your accuracy improves. Hard bullets need more pressure.

As for crimp, it won't hurt to experiment, but I tend to set my crimp and forget it, regardless of power level, and have never had any troubles.

HTH!

 

[Galil5.56]

My 29 classic loves 6.3 grains of Red Dot and properly sized and lubed 240 grain cast SWC's. This load will cut clover leafs at 25 yards and is very enjoyable to shoot w/o leading. I like Red Dot for this application because you get a nice bulky propellant of a fast burning rate that is very economical.

A lot of people seem to like Trail Boss for what you want, and it is reputed to be clean, and its incredible bulk density is a good thing IMO. Keep at it and I think with some experimentation good things will come.

 

[Ifishsum]

I crimp all my revolver rounds the same, with a good roll crimp. It's supposed to be more important on the slower powders like 296 but I don't bother to change the crimp when loading light loads.

.38 special is right about the powder formulations being cleaner. Unique is still kind of dirty for me with real light loads, but medium to medium heavy ones it's great. Bullseye is all I use in .38 special target loads and it doesn't seem dirty to me at all, and my cast loads shoot great. He may also have a point about hard cast bullets, if the bullets you're using are pretty hard and a little undersized, they might shoot OK at higher pressures but poorly at low pressure for lack of obturation. With cast it might be worth going up a size (.001) in diameter if you can find them.

 

[243winxb]

Cast bullets should be .430" diameter. Use the Winchester primer. WLP 6.0gr of Unique give around 750 fps. The crimp should be light.

 

[plinky]

Guys, I appreciate the outpouring of knowledge. You've given me a lot to think about. Yes, my Unique and Bullseye are old lots. I'm still on my first can of each(!). Glad to hear they've improved. Still, I have some other powders on hand that I'll try first. Titegroup seems to work well in other rounds (haven't tried with cast yet though). Also Red Dot, W231 and maybe HS-6. Trail Boss sounds interesting.

It sounds like the crimp is not the smoking gun but I'll experiment anyway. I'll give the barrel extra cleaning attention and stick to cast for a while. I did slug the bore and cylinder on my Bisley some time ago but really didn't follow through with it. I'll give that another look and see what I can find (or already have) in cast bullets.

Thanks again for your thoughts and component suggestions.

 

[Galil5.56]

Hard to say what the correct diameter should be... Hornady thinks .430" is correct for their JHP's, and Rem sized their 240 SWC GC bullets to .432". Obviously the gun can tell you what it likes with regard to "nominal" diameter. I have never found a revolver that shot better with a smaller diameter cast/swaged bullet over a larger, and if it will chamber easily, it will work safely and just peachy.

 

[.38 Special]

Cast bullets should be .430" diameter.

Assuming chamber mouths are .430" or .431". Often they are not, in which case you are better off with a different diameter. Again, either the same as or .001" less than chamber mouth diameter is usually ideal. There are some exceptions with soft bullets, light loads, and badly undersized throats, but unless you are firing an antique Colt SAA, you probably don't have that problem.

<edit> FWIW, jacketed bullets are more tolerant because they are slightly springy. They can be fired through mildly undersized cylinder throats and then "spring back" to make solid contact with the bore. Cast bullets are much less springy -- especially the hard cast ones usually available commercially -- so once sized down by undersized throats, or bore constrictions -- common at the breech of revolvers -- they do not spring back and therefor "rattle" down the rest of the bore.

<another edit> It is safe to use even seriously oversize lead bullets -- usually. Mild loads are safe with bullets even five or six thousandths over throat diameter. Hotter loads can be safe with those bullets too, as long as they are fairly hard. (Counterintuitive, but true.) The trouble is that oversize bullets will increase pressure, and if you are already near maximum then oversize bullets may push you into dangerous territory. And soft oversize bullets bullets in a magnum are a bad combination as a general rule.

Hope that all helps!

 

[243winxb]

Assuming chamber mouths are .430" or .431". Often they are not, in which case you are better off with a different diameter. Again, either the same as or .001" less than chamber mouth diameter is usually ideal. There are some exceptions with soft bullets, light loads, and badly undersized throats, but unless you are firing an antique Colt SAA, you probably don't have that problem.

I feel the problem should be fixed on a modern revolver by having the cylinder brought in to specification by sending firearm back to the factory for a new cylinder. If you need to size a cast bullet to say .434" to fit the mouth, when the bullet hits the forcing cone its sized down,deforming the bullet to fit the .429"- .430"groove diameter. There goes your accuracy. Just how i see it

 

[.38 Special]

Well, we're pretty much talking theory here, and yeah, if your modern .44 showed up with .435" throats then you should probably send it back.

But there are an awful lot of guns out there with oversize throats that cannot be sent back, including a lot of good Smith & Wessons. And in those cases, oversize bullets really can work extremely well.

 

[TexasSkyhawk]

It's finding a combination of powder, bullet, primer, case and gun. Once you start getting close and in the neighborhood, you'll get some really good groups.

44 Special is my favorite round to load and shoot, especially for target shooting. I test all my loads out in a box-stock 4" Mod 29, shooting handheld at 50'

The first target was a light Bullseye load with a 240 SWC cast bullet.

The second target was with a bit of a thumper load in AA#5, but one that held consistent grouping.

I do utilize, however, a fairly significant roll crimp with my 44 caliber loads, especially the cast bullets.

Jeff

 

[tbtrout]

If you try trail boss, you will not be dissappointed. Works great for light target loads.

 

[peacemaker45]

One problem one often runs into when loading light stuff is ecxess case capacity. That's why a lot of cowboy shooters (masters at mousephart level loads) often use shorter cases, like the .44 special, or .44 russian, in your case. .45 schofield, instead of the LC, or .38 s&w, or .38 short colt, instead of .38 spl. unfortunately, that's a pain.

It's hard to get consistent ignition when you don't know if your little bit of powder is back by the primer or out by the bullet. I've been horsing around with this for some time, trying to come up with a really good cowboy load. My original load was 2.7 grains of clays, and a 125 grain bullet, in a .38 spl case. I never was really impressed with the accuracy, but figured it was good enough, and used it for a couple of years. Then, when they introduced the new power factor, I shot the stuff over a chrono, just to check. low vel of 322, high of 910. Not good. Upon further investigation, i found out that the Clays was metering poorly, and throwing anywhere from 2.2 to 3.4 grains. Next stop, w231. Metered beautifully, but depending on powder location, still had velocity ranges from 428 to 670. when shooting on paper, this produced vertical stringing, as each shot fired left the powder a little further back in the case, and the load that little bit hotter. also left tons of ash, unburned powder, etc in the case and gun.

My next step is gonna be VV N320, hopefully that will help things out.

 

[plinky]

I'd swear I recently saw the balls from the first time I slugged this revolver but they are lost at the moment. I slugged it again. The chamber throats are pretty consistant at .431 to .4312. Not sure if that bit of variation matters.

Perhaps more interesting, the barrel is .429 AVERAGE, but the actual groove measurements are .4285, .429 and .4295 across the three sets of grooves. I do recall this from the first episode as well. Once the ball was in the muzzle, it passed with light fingertip pressure till it reached the forcing cone end where it took a bit of pressure to pop it out. That seems a little off to me. Like maybe the barrel is distorted slightly where it threads into the frame.

The gun really isn't broke in yet. Probably 300 rounds through it. Maybe the tightness at the forcing cone would gradually go away. Or perhaps there is a perfect load that will work in it.

I will get some Trail Boss for sure. It or Titegroup seem to have a better than average chance of working. TexasSkyHawk, that's what I'm working towards. Very nice.

Thanks again to all!

 

[.38 Special]

Those dimensions are not perfect, but they are close enough for government work. .430" is fine for bullet diameter, which makes things a bit easier. A .0002" variance in throats is nothing at all to worry about. Neither is the groove variance. The constriction at the forcing cone is unfortunate, but is pretty normal for revolvers. You are right in that it is the threaded area that causes the constriction. This can be fixed by fire lapping, which is SOP in all my revolvers. Extensive use of jacketed bullets also tends to have the same effect, but we are talking many hundreds if not thousands of bullets.

If you do not want to bother with that, then I really do believe your solution is to try to find some softer bullets. I think the fact that you have had good luck with higher pressures is a strong indication that lower pressures are simply not "bumping up" the bullet you are using.

As for powders, well, again there is no real harm in experimenting, but I do not think you have a high probability of finding a magic powder. I am a fan of Trail Boss, for instance, but I understand it has a fairly gentle burning curve. If I am right about bullet hardness being an issue, Trail Boss will be a step backwards. I wonder, perhaps, if a largish dose of a fast powder like Bullseye will do the trick. It builds pressure fast and might hammer the base of the bullets hard enough to bump them up, but the pressure falls off so quickly that you still end up with a medium velocity load.

If this was easy it wouldn't be as much fun. Right?

 

[plinky]

Lapping the barrel does sound like the real answer and might make the gun shoot better with all bullets. Even with jacketed it only shoots decent. I'll look into that.

I see what you mean about the bullet being the key. What do you think of the swaged bullets from Hornady and Speer? I should have a few of the Hornady HPs around. They're not as cheap as cast bullets but I would think they would be soft and consistant Or do you know a source for consistant soft cast bullets? I don't see many advertised as soft.

 

[.38 Special]

I have had tremendous results with Hornady's swaged bullets in the .38, and fairly poor results from Speer. I have not used them in anything other than the .38, though. I think they would probably be fine up to 900 or perhaps 1000 FPS.

I would definitely try some of those HPs. If they don't work then you can probably forget about my ideas of bullet hardness being a problem in that gun.

I'm afraid I can't help you with a source for softer cast bullets. Everyone has jumped on the "Our bullets are super hard!" bandwagon as though there is some kind of magic in that. AFAIC when a fellow gets serious about making cast bullets work in his revolvers, be casts them himself.

Something else to waste your time and money on, eh?

 

[243winxb]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obturate Plinky, The link will show what pressure and hardness of alloy is needed for a bullet to Obturate. I feel it takes a while for the cast bullets lube to work, as many as 30 rounds. When i am done firing my M29, the outside of the muzzle has a nice ring of lube left after the bullet has passed. Barrel conditioning mean a lot.

 

[jjohnson]

Low Pressures and Dirt

Oh, yeah.

You might think that your handgun would never get dirty if you shot cartridges without much powder in 'em, right? Noooooo.

If your cases look dirty, like they've been smoked, you're not building enough pressure to get a good seal. You won't find that with the factory rounds because those guys were a little more generous with the powder.

All that soot you find on you and your iron are, as the guys pointed out, from incomplete combustion. Sooty casings are a key clue that's what's happening.
As 38 pointed out, those are also dirty powders to start with, and accuracy is an entirely different deal, but I'd bet you that if you warm your loads a little towards the upper end of the published data you'll see a big difference.

 

[AgentAdam]

Maybe you need stronger primers.

 

[W.E.G.]

Hollow-base swaged-lead wadcutters are the shiznitz for low-velocity target loads.

 

[plinky]

Hollow-base swaged-lead wadcutters are the shiznitz for low-velocity target loads.

I was thinking the same thing as I read the Wiki article that 243winxb posted. I recall some DEWCs were sold by one of the big companys but I don't think I've ever seen HBWCs in .430 dia. I have read that the "skirts" will tear off with too hot a load and perhaps in a .44 Mag that's more likely to happen. That's an interesting article.

I found a full box of the Hornady swaged HPs so those will be first priority. Have to think about the powder....Titegroup...W231? Maybe some of my ancient Bullseye?

If the soft bullet loads aren't much better, and maybe even if they are, I am leaning towards getting a Final Finish fire lapping kit. I had thought about hand lapping but it sounds more risky in this application.

I'd love to cast and swage my own bullets but it seems like I'm already "over hobbied". <---my wife.

 

[.38 Special]

I don't think the powder will matter too much with the HPs. If it is bullet hardness that is the problem, the swaged bullets should shoot pretty well with most powders.

FWIW, I would avoid any fire lapping kit that uses jacketed bullets. Remember that once a cast bullet is sized down by a bore constriction it stays sized down. So the cast lapping bullet works on the first tight spot it encounters and then essentially leaves the rest of the bore untouched. Ultimately this results in the "perfect" bore: one that tapers from breech to muzzle.

With jacketed bullets, the "springiness" that allows them to tolerate the breech constriction and still spring back into the grooves also causes them to remove metal evenly from the entire length of the bore. Thus you get shiny smooth constrictions, which isn't exactly the idea.

I've had good luck with the NECO kit. I have heard that the LBT kit is at least as good, but have no experience.

HTH!

 

[Matt Dillon]

Folks, I have shot a lot of 148 Grain SWC over 2.7 grains of bullseye and just was thinking about this projectile - I never noticed it before, but it is not lubricated in any way, nor does it even have lube bands - Won't this promote leading, as it has no lube? Please share your thoughts, and thanks in advance!

 

[Ben Shepherd]

Matt Dillon-Are they the honady slugs with all the crosshatching? If so they are lubed, all over just lightly.

As for our original poster-

If you are using commercial hard cast, they are problematic in light loads. They're too hard to expand and seal the bore. Switch over to swaged bullets for your light loads and you should have much better results.