Cap and Ball for HD?

[OrangePwrx9]

A Canadian friend has a winter home in S. Florida and is concerned about home security. She is familiar with firearms and has taken a Front Sight Course. Being Canadian, she's not able to legally buy a firearm in this country.

Would a cap and ball revolver be legal for her to own? BP revolvers get around the firearms laws here in upstate NY by virtue of not being considered 'firearms'. Is this true nationally and in Florida?

Would a cap and ball revolver be a reasonable choice for the HD role?

 

[Cowboy2]

Florida is about as gun friendly a state as you'll find. While she might not be able to purchase a firearm in the state, she might want to see what the law is about possessing one, particularly within a personal dwelling. I don't know for sure, but I suspect its not a problem. Perhaps contact the NRA and see if they have any input?

 

[Curator]

Tell your friend to get a Florida hunting lisence, Then she can legally own a rifle or shotgun inside he State.

 

[mykeal]

First, regarding the use of a c&b handgun for personal or home defense: not the first choice but better than nothing. The main thing is to learn to shoot the final choice and to practice with it regularly. It's not the gun or the person that matters most, but the combination.

Second, regarding the legality of a non-citizen possessing a c&b handgun in any particular jurisdiction: legal advice obtained from an internet forum is worth less than what you pay for it. Find a local professional (NRA instructor, county prosecutor, lawyer who practices in gun law, all of the above) and get the facts. Purchasing a hunting license - now I've heard everything.

 

[hang fire]

I don't know if legal or not?

But know that if my old Colt .44-40 loaded with BP was fired in a enclosed space like a room, it would be the equivalent of a concussion grenade/flame thrower combo going off. Not to mention it very well might set the place on fire and burn it to ground.

I once used an old folded cotton towel as a rest on the hood of a vehicle, the first shot from it with BP set the towel on fire.

 

[MtnCreek]

You don't have to be a US citizen to purchase a firearm in the US. A good FL FLL could probably assist her with the purchase.

Edit: Cap & Ball? I guess so, assuming it's very well maintained. I'd rather have a shotgun (and not a muzzle loading shotgun).

 

[351 WINCHESTER]

Anyone can walk into Walmart and get a bp rifle. Anyone can walk into any gunshop in America and buy a bp revolver. The question is, is it legal for a non resident to do so?

I know as a U.S. Citizen I cannot take any handgun into Canada and I'm sure they would not sell me one. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

 

[EljaySL]

Purchasing a hunting license - now I've heard everything.

Don't dismiss that out of hand. There are states where non-citizens can buy a gun if they have some reason to do so, basically, and one of those reasons is hunting, and getting a hunting license does the job. I have NO idea if Florida is one of those states, which is of course one of the problems with asking on the Internet.

Edit: I Googled that and apparently it's part of the gun control act of '68. See http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=browse_usc&docid=Cite:+18USC922 and search for the text "hunting license".

 

[Jaymo]

She could stay in Canada.

OR, she could LEGALLY immigrate to the US and become a citizen. Then, she could buy all the guns she wants.

 

[mykeal]

There are states where non-citizens can buy a gun if they have some reason to do so, basically, and one of those reasons is hunting, and getting a hunting license does the job.

Really? I didn't know that. You learn something every day. What states would that be?

 

[Busyhands94]

Jaymo, you are right. She should become an American citizen, it's great here.

As for cap and ball guns for home defense, I keep my Remington New Model Army by my bedside. It never fails to blow a hole in something when I need it to so I employed it along with a few other surprises. If I'm bumming around the woods or checking the trot line I'll take my Super Companion with me. I made a wet-molded holster for it and like to stick it between my belly and trousers in that holster. Then I can put my shirt over that and I'm good to go. I load it with smokeless powder and those 30 grain bullets NAA sells with an X cut on the nose to promote expansion of the round. Shot into my kitty litter bullet trap they open up like little mushrooms, just how I want them to.

 

[Jaymo]

I think she'd like it here. Well, maybe AFTER the 2012 elections, anyway.

She doesn't have to load max powder loads in a cap & ball revolver to use it for HD. She could get a .44 C&B and download it some, to decrease the flamethrower effect.

OR, she could get a Pedersoli 20 gauge Howdah pistol and load it with #4 buckshot or buck & ball.
That way it's not cap & ball. It's cap & balls, lots of balls. Forget how many #4 go in each barrel.
Or she could load it with the .61 cal round balls. That makes it a cap & wrecking ball gun.
I'm confident the home invader she shoots with it will be painfully impressed.

 

[EljaySL]

Really? I didn't know that. You learn something every day. What states would that be?

Did you see the update? It went in about a half hour before your post. The hunting license is a Federal loophole and I provided a link to the law in question. If an interested party wants to look up the specifics in any given state they can be my guest, but the point is that the suggestion to get a hunting license was not off base, although it could have been elaborated on. Perhaps I should have revised my original paragraph instead of just adding on an addendum when I did more research so I couldn't have been quoted out of context. I'm not really sure what the standard protocol is here, so I guess I'll be going back to lurking.

 

[MCgunner]

I kinda doubt it's legal for her to own any type of gun save perhaps an air gun. I do not KNOW this; however, and also advise you talk to an authority in your state. You MIGHT be able to look it up. Texas penal code is on the net. Surely Florida is a member of the 21st century???? Are you an NRA member? They answer this sort of question all the time.

 

[Omnivore]

For what it's worth, we have foreigners come to shoot at Boomershoot most every year. I don't know the particulars, but I know they do it legally. The best advice is to consult someone in the destination state who knows for sure and can point to particular statutes, etc. Look into the use of modern firearms while you're at it, because that would be preferable (less smoke for one thing).

I once used an old folded cotton towel as a rest on the hood of a vehicle, the first shot from it with BP set the towel on fire.

I've had ther same thing happen, but the loose cotton is very close to the gun. I would have no worries about fire at all inside a dwelling however, especially considering that saving your life or that of a loved one is more important than the slim chance that you may have to snuff out an ember in the carpet afterwards, or douse the clothes on the perp. Proportion.

 

[dprice3844444]

she should get a fla d/l valid in fla only,or an id card available from d/l office.then have her check craigslist ,stuff pops up there all the time.

 

[Majes]

18 USC s.922(g)(5)(B)

It shall be unlawful for any person who, being an alien except as provided in subsection (y)(2), has been admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa (as that term is defined in section 101(a)(26) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1101 (a)(26))) to ship or transport in interstate or foreign commerce, or possess in or affecting commerce, any firearm or ammunition; or to receive any firearm or ammunition which has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce.

18 USC 1101(a)(26)

As used in this chapter The term “nonimmigrant visa†means a visa properly issued to an alien as an eligible nonimmigrant by a competent officer as provided in this chapter.

18 USC s.922(y)(2)

Subsections (d)(5)(B), (g)(5)(B), and (s)(3)(B)(v)(II) do not apply to any alien who has been lawfully admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa, if that alien is—
(A) admitted to the United States for lawful hunting or sporting purposes or is in possession of a hunting license or permit lawfully issued in the United States;
(B) an official representative of a foreign government who is—
(i) accredited to the United States Government or the Government’s mission to an international organization having its headquarters in the United States; or
(ii) en route to or from another country to which that alien is accredited;
(C) an official of a foreign government or a distinguished foreign visitor who has been so designated by the Department of State; or
(D) a foreign law enforcement officer of a friendly foreign government entering the United States on official law enforcement business.
18 USC s.922(y)(3)

(A) Conditions for waiver.— Any individual who has been admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa may receive a waiver from the requirements of subsection (g)(5), if—
(i) the individual submits to the Attorney General a petition that meets the requirements of subparagraph (C); and
(ii) the Attorney General approves the petition.
(B) Petition.— Each petition under subparagraph (B) shall—
(i) demonstrate that the petitioner has resided in the United States for a continuous period of not less than 180 days before the date on which the petition is submitted under this paragraph; and
(ii) include a written statement from the embassy or consulate of the petitioner, authorizing the petitioner to acquire a firearm or ammunition and certifying that the alien would not, absent the application of subsection (g)(5)(B), otherwise be prohibited from such acquisition under subsection (g).
(C) Approval of petition.— The Attorney General shall approve a petition submitted in accordance with this paragraph, if the Attorney General determines that waiving the requirements of subsection (g)(5)(B) with respect to the petitioner— (i) would be in the interests of justice; and (ii) would not jeopardize the public safety.

http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/18/I/44/922

Call and ask a professional, but ask about hunting not HD...

 

[mykeal]

Did you see the update? It went in about a half hour before your post. The hunting license is a Federal loophole and I provided a link to the law in question. If an interested party wants to look up the specifics in any given state they can be my guest, but the point is that the suggestion to get a hunting license was not off base, although it could have been elaborated on. Perhaps I should have revised my original paragraph instead of just adding on an addendum when I did more research so I couldn't have been quoted out of context. I'm not really sure what the standard protocol is here, so I guess I'll be going back to lurking.

No, I didn't see your update. This is the internet - there is no 'protocol'. If you want to be sure people see your edits/corrections/updates you'd be better off simply posting a new message in the thread with the new information. People don't tend to go back and reread previous posts for updates.

Yes, there is a FEDERAL provision in GCA '68 for aliens admitted on a NONIMMIGRANT visa to obtain and possess a firearm and ammunition IF HERE FOR SPORTING OR HUNTING PURPOSES.

1) I submit buying a gun for home or personal defense does not meet the 'sporting or hunting' requirement, so getting a hunting license so that she can buy a gun is still unlawful - it requires her to lie, which would be perjury and in this case a federal offense. Simply getting the hunting license doesn't make the purchase of a gun legal if she is buying the gun for some purpose other than hunting. Intent matters, and can be proven.

2) I did ask for information on what STATES made it legal for an alien to purchase a handgun with a hunting license; perhaps your thought was that the GCA '68 trumps state laws in this regard. That may be true and would depend on case law. Maybe it would be better to ask what states have laws against the hunting license 'loophole'. At any rate, thanks for the citation. It made me refresh my own memory on this point.

 

[trickshot]

If it is legal for her to own a muzzleloading gun while she is in Florida, I think a double barreled percussion shotgun loaded with buckshot would be a much better choice for home defense.

It has been my experience that most of the cap and ball revolvers being sold nowadays are not very reliable because of poor quality.

 

[Jaymo]

Pedersoli 20 gauge Howdah pistol would be good.
She could order it from Cabela's and have it shipped to her in Fla.

 

[Gatofeo]

A 20 gauge double-barreled pistol?
Are you serious? Have you even considered the recoil and blast of firing a .61-caliber handgun in an enclosed space?

There is a common misperception that just because black powder arms are not regulated like cartridge arms, they are not firearms.
I absolutely guarantee you that if you shoot someone with a black powder gun, no matter its design, you could be charged as if it were a modern gun.
It all depends upon the circumstances of the shooting, not the weapon used.
If you shoot someone without good cause -- and that means a clear and immediate danger to your life, or the lives of others by someone capable of causing such a threat -- it won't matter if you used a 17th-century Harquebus or a Glock.

Your friend should explore the possibility of getting a hunting license. Then, she can buy a shotgun. Remington makes its 870 in 20-gauge, with extended magazines. Loaded with No. 3 buckshot, it's a devastating weapon out to 40 yards or so. I know, because I have one.
The 20 gauge has less recoil than the 12, yet is more useful in the field than the .410 shotgun. Generally, 20-gauge shells are cheaper than .410 too.

But really, she should contact her local ATF office -- from a payphone if it makes her feel better -- and learn how she, as a legal alien, can purchase a firearm. Aliens who are legally in the U.S. can purchase firearms.

The law notes, "for hunting or sporting purposes." Seems to me, if she wants a handgun, a 4" barrelled .38 Special with target sights would qualify as a target gun. Load it with 148 gr. wadcutters for minimal recoil and blast in close quarters.

 

[gfanikf]

Just hope she doesn't need to reload.

Also how save is it it to keep a black powder weapon "chambered." I mean obviously it was done all the time back before the development of the non-BP guns, but I always wondered how safe it was.

 

[Jaymo]

The blast and recoil of the 20 gauge Howdah isn't bad at all.
If you load it to the gills, it's a little lively, but it doesn't have to be loaded to the gills to do the job.
Even when loaded to the gills, the recoil isn't bad.
The blast is a boom that is nowhere near as bad as any smokeless powder gun.

In states such as Georgia, a home invasion is legal justification to use lethal force, regardless of whether or not the invader is visibly armed.

A modern 20 gauge shotgun is a lot louder than the Howdah.
The deep boom, as opposed to the sharp crack, is one of many reasons I like it and my other BP arms so much.

 

[mdauben]

Also how save is it it to keep a black powder weapon "chambered." I mean obviously it was done all the time back before the development of the non-BP guns, but I always wondered how safe it was.

Generally, like old-style SA cartridge revolvers, a C&B revolver would have five loaded cylinders and one empty for the hammer to rest on. Its unsafe to leave the hammer down on a loaded cylinder.

Aside from that, from my reading back when people routinly carried C&B revolvers for SD, they would discharge and reload them frequently (sometimes daily). There are plenty of stories of 100 year old BP guns being found loaded and able to fire, but BP is hygroscopic (it absorbs moisture from the atmosphere) which can result in dud charges if its left loaded too long. This could be a problem for someone living in a humind, urban area.

 

[earplug]

Hunting and sporting use

Cheaper and more cost effective to compete in ICORE, IDPA or USPSA events.
No need to buy a hunting permit.

International shooters visit and compete within the United State all the time.
Even Canada has shooting events.