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Carbine vs Mid-length AR

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skipjackrc4

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Oct 7, 2010
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OK, I'm sorry if this question has been asked before, but I didn't really see any posts directly answering these questions.

I'm going to be buying an AR here in a week or so. The 2 choices are the Spike's Tactical LE Carbine ($800) or the ST LE Mid-Length ($810). Which should I get (price obviously doesn't matter.) Are mid-length parts easily available for repair and what not?
 
i have a mid length RRA, from what i have read the cycling on them is a bit smoother than a carbine because of the longer gas tube but i am no expert on the topic. i will say it's a bit front heavy but i do enjoy shooting it and imo the midlength looks more proportioned..
 
The mid-length is worth the extra $10. Parts availability is fine--after all, the only parts changes are in the barrel, gas tube, and handguards--and it makes the mechanism much less harsh on the internals, reducing felt recoil a little as well. It also gives you a longer sight radius if you plan on using irons.
 
I have two AR's a 20" and a 14.5" mid length. Two of my regular shooting buddies both have 16" carbines. I'm 6'4 and have long arms. I like the extra real estate the middy provides on the hand guard plus the longer sight radius.

I found this comparison between different gas systems VERY helpful in making my decision

When talking about the different gas systems on a 16" barrel, think about the distance from the gas hole to the end of the barrel. The longer that the bullet is in the barrel after the bullet passes the gas hole, the more gas that is getting pushed back through the gas tube and back into the gas key. The end result is a sharper recoil impulse.

This is why on a 16" barrel, a mid-length gas system is slightly smoother than a carbine length gas system.

The distance from the gas hole to the end of the A2 flash hider on a 16" barrel with carbine-length gas system is approximatley 9.5".

The distance from the gas hole to the end of the A2 flash hider on a 20" barrel with rifle length gas system is approximatley 7.5"

The distance from the gas hole to the end of the A2 flash hider on a 16" barrel with mid-length gas system is approximatley 7.5"

The distance from the gas hole to the end of the A2 flash hider on a 14.5" barrel with carbine-length gas system is approximatley 7.5"

Something to note. The 20" barrel with rifle length gas system, 16" barrel with mid-length gas system, and 14.5" barrel with carbine length gas system all have the same amount of dwell time (distance from the gas hole to the end of the barrel).

The 16" barrel with the carbine length gas system has a dwell time that is approximtely 1.5" longer. Thus it's pumping more gas into the bolt carrier key, forcing it back hard, etc. The 16" barrel with the carbine length gas system is harder on parts over the long term and you'll feel slightly more recoil impulse. Not a huge thing, but after shooting all 3 side by side on numerous occasions, I see no need to own a 16" barrel with a carbine length gas system. I own (18) AR15's. (2) are short barreled barreled rifles, the rest of my AR15's are either 14.5" M4's with a carbine length gas sytems or 16" Mid-Lengths.
 
To summarize the unreferenced quote: Carbine gas belongs on 14.5 barrels, midlength on 16".

Since civilians usually don't get the BATF paperwork to shoot 14.5, or pin long flashhiders on one, the look of the mil issue turned out to not work well dynamically on the legal 16" barrels. Mid length doesn't exist because it's GI, it exists because the manufacturers realized that customers might think they want carbine length and demand it, but Customer Service was bleeding dollars trying to keep them running.

Here's another way to look at it: carbine gas on 16" isn't milspec and hammers the action. It happens so much the makers went out of their way to offer midlength and literally create the market for a better solution. It's no different that coming from the other way, a cut down 16" barrel with rifle gas chokes up from a lack of dwell time.

Gas port position is critical in the timing of direct impingement, not an aesthetic option. If reliability is the #1 concern, proper location won't be compromised for looks.
 
Go with midlength, definitely, coming from someone who owns both.

As people experiment more, many are finding that in fact midlength gas works on a 14.5" barrel and rifle gas can work on a 16" barrel. There may be gas port size adjustments for these, but keep it in mind. The carbine length gas on a 16" is not a good setup for the reasons already noted.
 
Middy gas systems work well on 14.5s as well :)

I prefer Mid lengths for all my guns except SBRs (For obvious reasons)
 
Give me the carbine please. There is no tangible benefit of mid-length over carbine. If you need more real estate to mount garbage on your rails, you have too much garbage. I can qualify expert just as easily with an M4 carbine as I can with M16A4. Why would I want a mid length?

But, the carbine does hold advantages over mid-length, because, well, it is shorter. Accessories and replacement parts are also more common (due to influx of GI issued goodies leaking into the civilian market).
 
Give me the carbine please. There is no tangible benefit of mid-length over carbine. If you need more real estate to mount garbage on your rails, you have too much garbage. I can qualify expert just as easily with an M4 carbine as I can with M16A4. Why would I want a mid length?

But, the carbine does hold advantages over mid-length, because, well, it is shorter. Accessories and replacement parts are also more common (due to influx of GI issued goodies leaking into the civilian market).

Care to back up any of that with any quantifiable data?

How is a Shorter hand guard or rail an advantage? It forces you into a shorter grip which in turn gives you less control over the gun. But you do realize that this only refers to the gas system not the barrel length right?

The carbine length gas system is harder on the guns components than a middy is as well.

And as for your spare parts argument, the only difference is the barrel and Gas Tube. So if you need spares for that, chances are you have larger issues. All other parts are strait off a standard AR15/M16.

Finally, the ability for someone to qualify as an expert means nothing in regards to real world shooting. I know a number of people who are great shots from the bench but can't make a shot on the move if it would save the world.


Also you realize most of those GI goodies are illegal to own right?
 
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I always thought the carbine length looked silly. It's great if you can have a 14" barrel, but it doesn't sound like you can. The short little hand-guard with all that extra barrel poking out… meh. Besides, with the mid-length you can mount a bayonet to cut up your steak during a crisis. ;-)

AR2.png
 
Azziza,

This is MY personal preference.

During CQB, I grip the mag well, not the handguard.

When resting the firearm (whether in the prone or supported), pressure point should be as close to the receiver as possible. That is how I train soldiers.

You obviously do not know anything about military rifle qualification... specifically Army or Marine. Look it up.

My "quantifiable" data is experience over three combat deployments.

Where did I say a rail was an advantage? That is personal preference. I have heard that argument that carbine rails do not afford enough room to mount accessories. I find that argument humorous.

I have NEVER seen the gas system fail on an M4, in combat or otherwise. Your argument that a carbine gas system is harder on the rifle is redundant.

A broken handguard needs to be replaced with a PART. Carbine handguards are more common than mid-length.

M4 handguards and rails are more common than mid length. GI goodies are not illegal to own. How you obtained them can be. If an item is expendable, and supply tells you to keep it, it is not illegal to own it.... if so, you have a hundreds of thousands of veterans in need of prosecution! Good grief.................

Dude, if you like your mid length gas system, NOBODY is dinging you for it! I PERSONALLY do not see the advantage. MY opinion. Get a grip!
 
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i personally prefer the carbine length versions. nothing against the mid lengths, but havent encountered a reason to change.

and your service is appreciated pro2.
 
Thank you for your service.
See my replies in Red.

Azziza,

This is MY personal preference. During CQB, I grip the mag well.

This has been proven to be a bad way to handle an AR. Not only does it afford little control over the weapon but it is also dangerous in the event of catastrophic failure of the weapon.

When resting the firearm, pressure point should be as close to the receiver as possible. That is how I train soldiers.

No it should not be. Training has changed. No reputable instructor I have seen still teaches this method. Respectfully, I would encourage you to re-evaluate what you are teaching others, you are doing them a disservice by teaching them this way.

My "quantifiable" data is experience over three combat deployments.

That is not quantifiable data. It is personal experience with limited bearing on the subject at hand. Unit? Number of engagements? Specific scenarios that makes you an expert on this matter?

Where did I say a rail was an advantage? That is personal preference. I have heard that argument that carbine rails do not afford enough room to mount accessories. I find that argument humorous.

I agree that the argument of lack of room for accessories is funny. But frankly a rail is an advantage for a number of reasons.

I have NEVER seen the gas system fail on an M4, in combat or otherwise. Your argument that a carbine gas system is harder on the rifle is redundant.

Where did I say the gas system is the point of failure?

A broken handguard needs to be replaced with a PART. Carbine handguards are more common than mid-length.

Never seen a handguard or quality rail fail.

M4 handguards and rails are more common than mid length. GI goodies are not illegal to own. How you obtained them can be. If an item is expendable, and supply tells you they do not need you to turn it in, it is not illegal to own it.... if so, you have a lot of combat veterans that need to be prosecuted! Good grief.................

Many are illegal. Although some are not. Technically it is all .gov Property, but they only go after the big stuff.

Dude, if you like your mid length gas system, NOBODY is dinging you for it! I PERSONALLY do not see the advantage. MY opinion. Get a grip!

And there you have it. YOUR opinion. Which is the opposite of what has been proven to be a better system.

And I have a very good grip. A long grip that allows me much better control over my weapons than if I were to grab it at the mag well.
 
There is no tangible benefit of mid-length over carbine.
From a user's perspective, this is likely true. From an armorer's perspective, this is NOT true.

Carbine gas systems are simply harder on the reciprocating bits of an AR, and there has been extensive research into the pressure curves and gas temps for both. It is pretty well established fact at this point that an AR with a middie gas system will run longer and live happier than the same long gun with a carbine-length gas system.

I have NEVER seen the gas system fail on an M4, in combat or otherwise. Your argument that a carbine gas system is harder on the rifle is redundant.
The 'gas system' doesn't fail; the bolt assembly is the part that doesn't fare as well under the higher pressures.

http://ar15barrels.com/gfx/223plot.gif

See GT19 in the Armalite FAQ:
http://www.armalite.com/Categories.aspx?Category=538b8c3c-6710-4282-839f-fb5caf8043a3#gt
 
Sometimes I don't understand why people want to be willfully ignorant.

You have yet to actually back up any of your assertions then choose to ignore others.
Not my problem. Goodluck with whatever you plan on doing.
 
From a user's perspective, this is likely true. From an armorer's perspective, this is NOT true.

Carbine gas systems are simply harder on the reciprocating bits of an AR, and there has been extensive research into the pressure curves and gas temps for both. It is pretty well established fact at this point that an AR with a middie gas system will run longer and live happier than the same long gun with a carbine-length gas system.

The 'gas system' doesn't fail; the bolt assembly is the part that doesn't fare as well under the higher pressures.

http://ar15barrels.com/gfx/223plot.gif

See GT19 in the Armalite FAQ:
http://www.armalite.com/Categories.aspx?Category=538b8c3c-6710-4282-839f-fb5caf8043a3#gt
rbernie, I understand the argument that the mid-length gas system may run longer and live "happier" than a carbine gas system. If the rifle is properly maintained, the argument is tangible null.

I never seen an M4's bolt assembly or receiver fail either.

Now, if we wish to discuss a tangible upgrade upon the current carbine AR gas system, a piston driven bolt may make for a better argument?
 
I've built a few ARs over the past year and experimented with barrel lengths and gas systems. They were all built using Spikes heavy carbine buffers and collapsable stocks with stock springs. What I've found is this....

The 14.5 with carbine gas shoots softer than the 16 with like gas system. A 16 with mid gas shoots softer than both of the others. The 18 with rifle gas shoots the softest.
 
You have yet to actually back up any of your assertions then choose to ignore others.

the carbine length gas system is "mil-spec" for a carbine, mid length is not, and we all know how important it is to meet mil-spec requirements.
 
rbernie, the links are appreciated. I can see how this information would be factored into the purchase of an AR. Personal satisfaction is key. I'm personally content with the carbine gas system. :)
 
I've built a few ARs over the past year and experimented with barrel lengths and gas systems. They were all built using Spikes heavy carbine buffers and collapsable stocks with stock springs. What I've found is this....

The 14.5 with carbine gas shoots softer than the 16 with like gas system. A 16 with mid gas shoots softer than both of the others. The 18 with rifle gas shoots the softest.
Did you use the same muzzle device on all builds?
 
pro2 said:
This is MY personal preference.

During CQB, I grip the mag well, not the handguard.

When resting the firearm (whether in the prone or supported), pressure point should be as close to the receiver as possible. That is how I train soldiers.

How is moving the fulcrum back on a long lever conducive to better control of the end of that lever (i.e. muzzle)?

There is no tangible benefit of mid-length over carbine.

There are several tangible benefits to the midlength over the carbine. They include:

1. Longer sight radius for iron sights
2. Smoother recoil impulse due to a delayed lock time from the longer gas system.
3. Less wear and tear due to a delayed lock time from the longer gas system.
4. More handguard real estate - this means I can use anything from 3-gun grip on the rifle to a mag well hold. It means more rail space to put equipment where I can best use it. Finally it means that I will have to work a little harder to brand myself with a hot barrel during training.

But, the carbine does hold advantages over mid-length, because, well, it is shorter.

At maximum, the length difference between an NFA length M4 and a midlength with an A2 muzzle device is about 1.5" - not exactly earth-shattering.

My "quantifiable" data is experience over three combat deployments.

That isn't quantifiable data. For all I know, you carried rifle for three deployments and fired a grand total of 120 rounds during training. Or maybe you fired 4,000 rounds on a known distance range with wind flags in 60 round intervals with no real stress on the rifle.

Saying you have three combat deployments doesn't help to establish your expertise on the differences between a midlength and a carbine (especially since the military doesn't use the midlength) or your general knowledge of firearms. There are lots of combat vets out there who are awesome fighters but who have at best, a basic knowledge of firearms.

Shooting and weapons design/maintenance are not the same thing as combat. They are occasionally related; but being an expert shot doesn't make you an expert in combat and three combat deployments doesn't mean you know firearms or shooting well.

I never seen an M4's bolt assembly or receiver fail either.

Here is a 2006 NDIA Presentation from the USSOCOM SOPMOD Program Manager at NSWC Crane. On Page 44, he notes that om harsh firing schedules, M4s will show initial cracking of the bolt at around 3,000-6,000 rounds. On milder schedules, it will show at 6,000-10,000 rounds.

By comparison, Pat Rogers infamous Filthy 14 midlength went 16,400 rounds before showing cracks on the bolt.

Not exactly undisputable data; but it does show two things:

1. Midlengths do appear to last longer given equal quality parts
2. Bolt failure in the AR15 does happen, even though you may not be aware of it personally.

This isn't rocket sciene - the M16 was designed with a 20" barrel and a rifle length gas system. All of the variations of the M16 use original parts designed around these times and pressures; but use them in variants where times and pressures are much different than the original 20" rifle. The result is usually some tiny degree of reduction in reliability and a shorter lifespan for the weapon.

If the rifle is properly maintained, the argument is tangible null.

Maybe if someone else is doing the maintaining (and doing it properly); but around here, I have to pay for my maintenance. So if I can get a system that lasts 1,000 rounds more for $10 price difference, that is a good trade - assuming of course that you shoot often enough you'll ever get to appreciate that difference. If you don't then maybe it does offer less benefit.
 
the carbine length gas system is "mil-spec" for a carbine, mid length is not, and we all know how important it is to meet mil-spec requirements.
Which was the point I was making; you cannot own a carbine length barrel (assuming you don't go the SBR route) so why have the carbine length gas system and hand-guard?
 
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