Carcano rifles?

[ThorinNNY]

I wonder if anyone here has a 6.5 Carcano rifle and what there experience has been with it?
After President Kennedy was assasinated with one in 1963, the word Carcano aroused people`s anger.I remember reading in the paper that "experts" claimed it would have been impossible to do what was claimed it did because the Carcano was a POS. I was in high school at the time and that impression stuck with me for a very long time. However,I`ve come across some info that suggests my inital impression may not be completely accurate. Some people claim that the Carcano rifle was decent but the ammunition was poor. Supposedly it was a high velocity round that passed through, leaving a very small wound channel.People have claimed with proper ammunition, it would have been a far better performer.
I`ve seen pictures of them, but have never had an opportunity to personally examine one or shoot the critter.
What can you-assuming you have or had one- tell me about them?

 

[Roan]

Carcanos have a very bad, and largely undeserved, reputation. As you mentioned, following the Kennedy assassination, a large amount of public anger was directed at the rifle itself. But a lot of this anger built upon the scorn built during WWII. During WWII, to say that the Italian Army wasn't the most effective fighting force was an understatement. This has much more to do with strategy than any failures of the soldiers and their gear, and they were often placed in largely unwinable situations. A common joke at the time was 'I've got an Italian Rifle to sell you. Never been fired, only dropped once.' (This joke has since been adapted to the French in some circles.)

The rifle itself is solidly built and decently accurate. The idea that it is underpowered has relevance only in relation to other WWII rounds. It is less powerful as a round than .30-06 or 7.62x54 or 8mm Mauser. This is only part of the story, of course, since modern militaries have moved even smaller to 5.56 and 5.45. They are enjoyable weapons to shoot, accurate, inexpensive, and reliable. There are problems from a military perspective (en bloc clips are not a good idea for supply reasons for example), but from a single weapon perspective, it's a great bit of history, militaria, and a decent addition to any military surplus collection.

 

[451 Detonics]

Oddly enough when Kennedy was shot the earliest press statements had Dallas police officers claiming a Mauser as the firearm Oswald used...later pics showed the Carcano.

This video has some interesting points...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGOQ2oebB2M

 

[MrDig]

I remember people joking that the one Oswald used was the only one that actually worked.
I also remember people saying they were never fired and only dropped once when the soldier surrendered.
But I do know this, my father, who landed at Anzio and Salerno claimed they were solid and easily could have had the ballistic ability to make the first and second shots claimed, the third shot was entirely based on the ability of the shooter. Meaning that only someone extremely fast could fire three rounds in that period of time. Many shooters have tried to replicate the three shots in the time it took and failed.
I would like to buy one just to try it out. Not shooting three rounds that fast just shooting it at all.

 

[Phaethon]

Well, it's pretty similar to the 6.5x55 Swede, although ballistics data indicates that it's characteristically weaker by comparison. Nevertheless I'd wager that it's a flat shooting cartridge and that anyone hit by one wouldn't be tickled by it. If one can argue that a 5.56x45 will take someone down, I don't see why a 6.5x52 can't.

Carcano's are probably all-right rifles. A usable rifle doesn't need to be complex or elegant, as the Mosin demonstrates. Something about the Carcano just repulses me though, even though my ancestry goes back to Italy... it just looks and feels crude and unbalanced. It doesn't even possess the kind of elegant ugliness of an old black Lee Enfield No. 1. I suppose that if there was a full-size Carcano on sale instead of those dreadful carbines, maybe for 100$, I'd probably pick it up. Otherwise I think my money would be better spent on superior rifles from more successful countries with cartridges that are more readily available.

 

[Coltdriver]

Thanks .45Guy.

I have a 6.5x54 and was very interested in the Carcano but there is one problem. It takes a .268 bullet. Hornady used to make them but they are discontinuing them. So I don't know, short of cast bullets, where you get bullets to reload with.

Otherwise the Carcanos can still be had at pretty attractive prices.

 

[.45Guy]

I do love my Carcanos! Now, to clear up some mis-information. 6.5x54 is the Greek Mannlicher Schoenauer chambering. x52 is the Italian Carcano. The only thing Mannlicher about it would be the en-bloc actually, and that is a loose assumption at best. They were only manufactured in Italy by the following: Armaguerra Cremona, Beretta, Brescia
(aka F.N.A. Brescia), Gardone Val Trompia
(aka Gardone VT), Pietro Lorenzotti (Brescia), Metallurgica Bresciana
(aka MBT), Mida Brescia, Roma, R.E. Terni (aka Terni; FAT), Torino, Torre Annunziata.

 

[ThorinNNY]

Lots of interesting info here. The you tube video 451 Detonics posted was a real eye -opener.
Thanks, everyone.

 

[MythBuster]

They are not inaccurate. What makes them hard to hit a target with is the fact their iron sights are terrible. I have seen them shoot as much as three feet high at 100 yards.

Scope the rifle or modify the iron sights so they shoot point of aim and you can hit with one of them just as well as you can many other old military rifles.

 

[amd6547]

I have owned and shot most of the classic bolt rifles...Enfield, Springfield, Mauser, Mosin...I find the Carcano to be one of the slickest actions of all. In fact, I would say that only the Swiss K31 is faster.
My Carcano cavalry carbine is one of the handiest, fastest handling carbines ever. Fast to load with the enbloc clip, light recoiling, and slick, sure bolt.
Shooting my Carcano changed my opinion on whether the Carcano was capable of the JFK shooting...still hasn't erased my doubts.

 

[MachIVshooter]

The Carcano is a good rifle, just not well suited to customizing. The actions aren't weak, per se, but they're certainly not '98 Mausers.

The round itself is unimpressive on paper, but highly effective in reality, much like other moderately powered 6.5mm rounds. This is owed largely to the long, heavy bullets that penetrate out of proportion to what the energy/velocity would suggest.

Accuracy? Their comparable to most other military bolt rifles.

I like them, own four (M91 long rifle, 91/38 short rifle, M38 7.35mm Short rifle, Cavalry carbine). Don't fire them often, but they're always a hoot. Very fast actions.

During WWII, to say that the Italian Army wasn't the most effective fighting force was an understatement. This has much more to do with strategy than any failures of the soldiers and their gear, and they were often placed in largely unwinable situations.

That, and the dissention in the ranks. I think most Italian soldiers felt it wasn't their war, and weren't particularly devoted to winning (whatever winning was to them......for land that wasn't in jeopardy in the first place?). Mussolini stuck them in the middle of Hitler's failing campaign, and they had no real motivation to fight. Couple that with the fact that most Italians hated Hitler and Mussolini and collaborated with allied forces, and that some big names in Italian gunmaking were supplying the resistance forces, and you had quite a snafu going on in the boot country.

I believe most of them were made in Austria or in Bulgaria. Could be wrong about Bulgaria.

Nope. They were designed and produced in Italy, most by Terni and Brescia, but also by Beretta, Gardone and others

 

[2ndAmFan]

A friend of mine has a Carcano and at 100 yds iron sights it's right on the money. It looks crude but it functions flawlessly.

 

[gunnerh]

I have had a few over the years,all carbines of one type or another. All shot fairly well. Low recoil, minute of car door accreucy and cheap. Ammo is easier to got now but norma's is the best pricecy but the best. Two boxes of ammo and a bottle of hoppes cost more then any the carcanos I've owned. I keep one as a knock-about rifle in my truck. Fun little guns.

 

[hang fire]

IIRC, with the type 99 Arisaka being #1 as to strength for WW2 bolt actions, the Carcano is #2. Some people who have torture tested to blow them up, were amazed at just how strong the Carcano action is.

 

[MachIVshooter]

IIRC, with the type 99 Arisaka being #1 as to strength for WW2 bolt actions, the Carcano is #2. Some people who have torture tested to blow them up, were amazed at just how strong the Carcano action is.

Do you have any links? I love my Carcanos, but it seems the 8x57 pushed them to (and perhaps beyond) their limits. I'd be interested in finding out otherwise............

 

[.45Guy]

I'll find the link later, but the test cited was in P.O. Ackley's Handbook for Shooters and Reloaders.

 

[.45Guy]

I have seen them shoot as much as three feet high at 100 yards.

If you're shooting a fucile corto, the sights azre regulated for 300 yards. If you want it to be on at 100, get a higher front blade like on the Finn 38's.

 

[lathedog]

Carcanos are crude compared to most military Mausers, as far as fit and finish. Bolt movement is a bit rough on most, and the battlefield zeroes are typically for several hundred meters/yards (as with most military bolt guns) so guys shooting at a 100yd range feel they "shoot high". As a military arm, they do the job that was expected of them.

Very similar Mannlicher rifles in a very similar chambering are among the most widely used rifles between WWI and WWII for hunting all game in Africa. More elephants went down to 6.5 MS than I think any other cartridge.

Down side to Carcano as a sporter rifle include the split rear bridge (difficult/awkward to mount peep sight or scope), en-bloc clip, and single stack magazine with small diameter receiver (limits round count for a given mag box height). Maximum safe pressures in the action are lower than most currently desired cartridges.

They used to be cheap guns but all military bolt guns have been climbing in price. A Mosin 91/30 is probably a better buy in today's market. Most of the above applies to them as well, except they are made to handle a bit hotter cartridge.

 

[.45Guy]

small diameter receiver

The Carcano actually has a larger diameter ring than the '03 Springfield.
Carcano: 1.335"
Springfield: 1.305"
M-1917: 1.385
Mosin Nagant: 1.225
Enfield #4: 1.305
Large ring mauser: 1.410
Small ring " ": 1.300

 

[skidooman603]

They are not inaccurate. What makes them hard to hit a target with is the fact their iron sights are terrible. I have seen them shoot as much as three feet high at 100 yards.

Scope the rifle or modify the iron sights so they shoot point of aim and you can hit with one of them just as well as you can many other old military rifles.

Nothing a new front sight blade wouldn't fix. I have shot the Carcano and although I don't own one (most of my milsurps are 6.5x55 or .30-06) I found them to be reasonably accurate and more so than most Mosins I've shot..

 

[Carl N. Brown]

I have shot my Carcano in the local black powder cartridge matches with a handload of 3.4cc Triple Se7en black powder substitute, using pulled 160 grain FMJ military bullets (chanellure lubed with Bore Butter).

This is a group with my Carcano at 100 yards:

Black powder substitute in a gun designed for smokeless powder is not exactly ideal.

Now, the Carcano is an 1890s design, and in the late 1950s to early 1960s a box of 20 rounds Norma hunting ammo cost more than the typical war surplus Carcano rifle ($15 to $20), mounting a scope is hard, so few people had a high opinion of the Carcano in the 1950s-1960s. In fact, the only WWII surplus guns I heard any praise for were Mauser 98's and Springfield 'O3s.

Misidentification as Mauser

A Dallas policeman who saw the gun carried down a hallway identified the gun as a 7.65 Mauser. The top picture is scanned of the assassination weapon from the Warren Report. The bottom picture was scanned from a 1960s gun magazine ad.

As I see it, a quick glance as the gun was carried by could easily lead to misidentification.

 

[Jim NE]

....Mussolini stuck them in the middle of Hitler's failing campaign, and they had no real motivation to fight. Couple that with the fact that most Italians hated Hitler and Mussolini and collaborated with allied forces,....

I tend to believe this. In the 20 years following WW2, there was a good deal of residual resentment towards Germany and Japan in the US (still some today), but relatively little antipathy towards Italy.

 

[WardenWolf]

IIRC, with the type 99 Arisaka being #1 as to strength for WW2 bolt actions, the Carcano is #2. Some people who have torture tested to blow them up, were amazed at just how strong the Carcano action is.

Do you have any links? I love my Carcanos, but it seems the 8x57 pushed them to (and perhaps beyond) their limits. I'd be interested in finding out otherwise............

Not true. The Japanese Type 38 was the strongest action of World War II (and the only one P.O. Ackley wasn't able to blow up), with the Type 99 the second strongest. I don't know how the Carcano fared, but it definitely wasn't one of the two strongest.

 

[KodiakBeer]

The only Carcano I've ever shot was years ago and belonged to an elderly friend who had used it for his seal gun for many years. If you've ever seen a seal in the water you'll note that its brain pan is about like a clay pigeon (or a bit smaller), viewed from the side. Your target is perhaps an inch high and 4 inches across.

He used that rifle for many years to make those shots. We dragged it out to shoot one day and it was plenty accurate and the action fairly smooth. It was no problem hitting beer cans out to 100 yards or so. I didn't shoot it on paper...

 

[.45Guy]

Still looking for a direct link to the ackley tests. Here is a link with a little more info to aid anyone else in searching: http://forums.gunboards.com/archive/index.php/t-3529.html