Carry in Vehicle in state of Florida

[Larenegade]

Does anyone know the law in Florida about carry on person in a vehicle in route to a shooting function, target shoot or hunting. If in a holster the pistol is covered by the holster but the gun is still visible. Suppose your in your vehicle and the items next to you block open view of the pistol. Can this be considered a violation or considered Carrying A Concealed Weapon and you charged with CCW and lead to forfeiture of your gun? Are there any laws to protect you from this happening? Anyone familiar with the part of the law that covers going to a from a shooting function? I always thought that your vehicle was considered an extension of your home. If you have not done anything illegal but sitting in your vehicle at a store on private property waiting for someone to meet you, in route to the shooting range with gear in the vehicle to support going to the range, and asked if you have a firearm by Law Enforcement whom noticed your NRA Life Member sticker on your window, have you broken a law? One should know that having a NRA sticker may lead to the question being asked, "Do you have a gun?"
Is the law clear about this vehicle situation? Is it an extension of your home?

 

[atk]

check out www.handgunlaw.us - they link to the appropriate authorities for information.

 

[benEzra]

You can have a gun, loaded or unloaded, with you in a "private conveyance" in Florida, as long as the gun is "securely encased." A "conveyance" under the law is a "trailer, motor vehicle, ship, railway car, or aircraft," but does not include a bicycle.

From Florida Firearms: Law, Use, and Ownership (Gutmacher), the best legal reference on FL gun laws:

"Securely encased" means that the weapon or firearm is in some type of holster, bag, enclosure, box, or container that is secured with a clasp, lid, zipper, strap, snap, Velcro, or other device, so that in order to fire or use the weapon, the device must first be opened, removed, or undone. It does not require a lock. The purpose behind this was to give a person a very brief opportunity to think about it, before actually using it. This includes a closed glove compartment, or console; zippered, snapped, or Velcro-closed bag, holster, or case which must first be unclasped in order to fire; any type of box or enclosure with a closed lid; or even a purse -- assuming you can't operate the firing mechanism through the fabric, and there is some physical act required to open the top of the purse and unhook/unclasp/unzip it. A briefcase or suitcase also falls into this category. A cardboard box with the lid closed also complies.

...

There's another legal way to transport a firearm in a private conveyance (i.e. "vehicle") if it's NOT securely encased called "not readily accessible for immediate use." ... Court cases establish that this should include a loaded firearm with a trigger lock; or an empty firearm without any ammunition in "close proximity". If the ammo was in the trunk it would be fine. Same thing if the ammo were in a locked box. Otherwise you're getting risky, and asking for a test case.

So, basically, in Florida, the gun is legal under the seat in a snapped-closed holster; in the glove compartment or console with a closed lid; etc. Concealed or not is irrelevant. HOWEVER, you cannot have the gun on your person, as I read the law, nor can you have the gun in a condition in which it is not "securely encased."

 

[LSCurrier]

It is easy enough to get a concealed carry license in FL.

Why not go this route?

Luke

 

[6_gunner]

HOWEVER, you cannot have the gun on your person, as I read the law,

The way I read it, you should be able to have it on your person so long as it's in a holster with a retention strap. I may be mistaken, though.

I was thinking that Florida honored my Indiana permit, but I'm not sure. I have a list of states that do, but I haven't looked at it for a while. Anybody know if that's the case?

 

[Jkwas]

If it's in a holster, it has to be in a case, glove box, or compartment. If you have have it in a holster, then the gun is not completely encased. Even a paper bag is considered encased, provided the gun is completely enclosed. By the way, paper bag carry can be useful.

 

[Larenegade]

Yes you learn from mistakes but SW Florida isn't the place to make one. I didn't have a CCW permit and that would have solved everything. Knowing the law and how one deputy reads the law means alot and having the money to fight the charge is another issue in itself. I have had different answers from every officer I have asked. Some said as long as you are required to use 2 moves to get at the weapon and some said 3 moves. Even that if you are on the way to a function you are allowed to wear the gun. In this case the officer said, "He isn't helping us so I'll just charge him with CCW." Not knowing what they are asking means they don't care and you are guilty. The lesson learned is don't answer any questions just ask for an attorney from the beginning. Trying to cooperate with Law Enf. will give a rookie something to use and then it amounts to how much $$$ you have to fight it. Then The criminals use the 5th Amendment Rights and innocent people answer questions. Wonder why people have negative issues with Law Enforcement!! I don't have to wonder and I was in law enforcement for 8 years. Quilty until proven innocent now days! At least in SW Florida.

 

[lacoochee]

I'm confused Larengade were you charged with carrying a concealed weapon illegally while sitting in your car waiting for a friend?

I am sure there must be the occasional jerk LEO out there in Florida that does not know the law as well as they should, but for the most part I have found that most police officers in Florida are pro-gun with regards to their fellow citizens carrying.

The two step - three step "law" is a weird myth that must have been valid somewhere at some point. I have heard it from any number of people over the years, it however has nothing to do with the law in Florida.

 

[Larenegade]

I'm confused Larengade were you charged with carrying a concealed weapon illegally while sitting in your car waiting for a friend?

Yep that is what happened. A $1500 Customized 1911 Colt Commander from Clark Custom was taken. I was waiting for someone and Law Enf. was looking for someone. I was in my vehicle in a 7-11 parking lot and was approached and asked about a person. Didn't know anything except someone had called my phone # and asked if I knew where someone was. I was in my vehicle and approached by S.O. deputy. I was talking to him when I saw his partner thru my rear view mirror notice my NRA sticker and lean over to me and ask if I was armed. I replied yes I was as I hope anyone would do if I asked them. I then got out of my vehicle and gave them my pistol voluntarily. Then later when they did not get whatever info they wanted from me the young deputy stated in front of me, "Well he hasn't helped us so I will just go with CCW." I had done nothing and did not know what they wanted and it didn't matter. I had just 6 months before had a transplant and had just moved to Florida 4 months before that. I was in route to shoot for the first time since my surgery. And I was a police officer for 8 years until I became sick. Talk about being in the wrong place and not knowing who I was around. It was reduced to a misdemeanor but loosing a $1500 + gun and $3,000 to fight it has been a nightmare.
And the DA made a remark before court they had been playing with my pistol in the office! I didn't take that softly but facing a felony for having my gun in an holster on the way to a range, not the best way to spend Christmas Day.

 

[hockeybum]

i thought that being ex-LEO meant that you could carry wherever you wanted, whenever you wanted. at least this is what i was told by a man who was a police officer for 30 years, and my dad has also stated the same. i can't remember what state he lived in, i met him on a hunting trip.

 

[xm15]

Wow, there is a lot of misinformation in this thread. I'd like to answer this. As both a Florida state certified instructor and an NRA Law Enforcement Firearms Instructor, I am at least passingly familiar with this.

First of all, the relevant Florida law is 790.25, Florida Statutes, which states:

(5) POSSESSION IN PRIVATE CONVEYANCE.--Notwithstanding subsection (2), it is lawful and is not a violation of s. 790.01 for a person 18 years of age or older to possess a concealed firearm or other weapon for self-defense or other lawful purpose within the interior of a private conveyance, without a license, if the firearm or other weapon is securely encased or is otherwise not readily accessible for immediate use. Nothing herein contained prohibits the carrying of a legal firearm other than a handgun anywhere in a private conveyance when such firearm is being carried for a lawful use. Nothing herein contained shall be construed to authorize the carrying of a concealed firearm or other weapon on the person. This subsection shall be liberally construed in favor of the lawful use, ownership, and possession of firearms and other weapons, including lawful self-defense as provided in s. 776.012.

Readily Accessible and Securely Encased are defined in F.S. 790.001:

(16) "Readily accessible for immediate use" means that a firearm or other weapon is carried on the person or within such close proximity and in such a manner that it can be retrieved and used as easily and quickly as if carried on the person.

(17) "Securely encased" means in a glove compartment, whether or not locked; snapped in a holster; in a gun case, whether or not locked; in a zippered gun case; or in a closed box or container which requires a lid or cover to be opened for access.

To lawfully carry a handgun in your vehicle, without a permit, it must be securely encased, per the above definition and it must also not be readily accessible for immediate use.

So, some of the examples used in this thread are flat out illegal. A handgun snapped in a holster, on your person or under your seat, is NOT legal becuase it is readily accessible for immediate use. A handgun in a paper bag, is NOT securely encased, and because it can be manipulated through the bag, would generally also be considered readily accessible for immediate use as well.

To avoid LEO "interpretations" of what the definition of securely encased actually means, you are best off utilizing one of the methods that is specifically listed under the definition. In the glove compartment, in a gun case, or in a zippered gun case.

You are honestly much better off just getting a CWP and not having to worry about whether or not the LEO's interpretation of the law differs from yours.

 

[Wes Janson]

To lawfully carry a handgun in your vehicle, without a permit, it must be securely encased, per the above definition and it must also not be readily accessible for immediate use.

So, some of the examples used in this thread are flat out illegal. A handgun snapped in a holster, on your person or under your seat, is NOT legal becuase it is readily accessible for immediate use. A handgun in a paper bag, is NOT securely encased, and because it can be manipulated through the bag, would generally also be considered readily accessible for immediate use as well.

I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one, xm15. Re-read paragraph (5):

.--Notwithstanding subsection (2), it is lawful and is not a violation of s. 790.01 for a person 18 years of age or older to possess a concealed firearm or other weapon for self-defense or other lawful purpose within the interior of a private conveyance, without a license, if the firearm or other weapon is securely encased or is otherwise not readily accessible for immediate use.

It may be securely encased OR otherwise not readily accessible for immediate use. It does not need to be both, as either condition will qualify. As I recall, I believe Gutmacher says that a loaded handgun in a snapped holster, sitting on the passenger seat, would in theory be legal. However, there is a bit of a question as to whether it would be legal to have that same snapped holstered handgun on your belt while in the vehicle. IIRC, I believe someone I know asked Gutmacher that once, and was told in response that it would be considered a violation of the prohibition against open carry (although it seems like a real stretch). However,

To avoid LEO "interpretations" of what the definition of securely encased actually means, you are best off utilizing one of the methods that is specifically listed under the definition. In the glove compartment, in a gun case, or in a zippered gun case.

is still extremely good advice, because all of it means nothing if you get stopped by some idiot who has no knowledge of chapter 790 and doesn't like you. There seem to still be thousands of people out there who are convinced a handgun must require two or three steps to access...and trying to enlighten one of them during the course of a traffic stop would probably not be an enjoyable experience. It would seem that the most prudent thing to do is avoid attention and try not to become a test case by pushing the limits.

 

[markk]

If you had a weapon on your person, in your car without a CWP in Florida then you are, in fact, guilty of CCW. Your car is not an extension of your home in this regard. The "securly encased" aspects of the law are only relevant to a gun not on your person.

Florida's laws regarding weapons are really quite clear if you take the time to read them.

 

[divemedic]

and let me add that the "2 step" or "three step" rule is not now, nor has it ever been, the law in Florida.

Also, even if you are within your rights, getting charged with a crime is an expensive prospect. Since CWP is so easy to get, there is no excuse for anyone not to have one.

 

[Dave P]

This may be applicable:

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/...790/ch0790.htm

(3) LAWFUL USES.--...it is lawful for the following persons to own, possess, and lawfully use firearms and other weapons, ammunition, and supplies for lawful purposes:


(h) A person engaged in fishing, camping, or lawful hunting or going to or returning from a fishing, camping, or lawful hunting expedition;

(j) A person firing weapons for testing or target practice under safe conditions and in a safe place not prohibited by law or going to or from such place;

zzzzzzzzzzzz Be sure you let us know how this pans out.

 

[k_dawg]

Every so often, 790 (3) (h)/(j) comes up.

Unfortunately, I have never seen an actual case where it was involved. Most likely, the cops are ignorant [ or ignore ] this statute, and will still arrest you. In the end, you may "win", but you'll be out alot of time and money.

Make your life easy. Get a CWL. It's easy and solves everything.

 

[xm15]

Wes: Unfortunately, despite what the law states in black & white, in practice it is both securely encased AND not readily accessible for immediate use. Florida case law is pretty clear on this. In Alexander v. State (1985) the District Court of Appeals ruled that the primary requirement of the statute is that the firearm is not "readily accessible for immediate use" and that this requirement is not separate from the "securely encased" requirement. Because of the wording of 790.25, securely encased is held to include the requirement that the firearm not also be readily accessible. The statute does not say "securely encased or not readily accessible for immediate use", it states "securely encased or is otherwise not readily accessible for immediate use", therefore the two requirements are coupled together.

If you've never searched and read through the Court of Appeals decisions in Florida regarding CCW, I suggest you give it a whirl. It is a highly enlightening experience, and amply illustrates that relying on what one thinks the law means can result in unintended consequences.

 

[Wes Janson]

Wes: Unfortunately, despite what the law states in black & white, in practice it is both securely encased AND not readily accessible for immediate use. Florida case law is pretty clear on this. In Alexander v. State (1985) the District Court of Appeals ruled that the primary requirement of the statute is that the firearm is not "readily accessible for immediate use" and that this requirement is not separate from the "securely encased" requirement. Because of the wording of 790.25, securely encased is held to include the requirement that the firearm not also be readily accessible. The statute does not say "securely encased or not readily accessible for immediate use", it states "securely encased or is otherwise not readily accessible for immediate use", therefore the two requirements are coupled together.

If you've never searched and read through the Court of Appeals decisions in Florida regarding CCW, I suggest you give it a whirl. It is a highly enlightening experience, and amply illustrates that relying on what one thinks the law means can result in unintended consequences.

All I know is what Jon Gutmacher's book states as being legal, which is/includes the following passage:

So, you can see the courts are fairly liberal on what is "securely encased". As long as the statutory purpose is met, a firearm can be kept in just about anything in a vehicle if it has a lid, closure, or something must be opened to get it out.

QUESTION: Can the handgun be loaded if I do this?

ANSWER: Absolutely. It won't do you any good otherwise.

QUESTION: What if it's in my console, loaded, and ready to go?

ANSWER: Totally legal as long as the lid is closed.

Now, I will grant the possibility that Gutmacher is wrong, that your interpretation of the law is correct, and that it's illegal for me to have a loaded handgun in my console. But with all due respect, I am slightly more inclined to believe the current edition of Florida Firearms Law, Use, and Ownership than someone on an internet forum. I'd be very interested in seeing proof to the contrary, in which case I will gladly admit my error.

 

[xm15]

Now, I will grant the possibility that Gutmacher is wrong, that your interpretation of the law is correct, and that it's illegal for me to have a loaded handgun in my console. But with all due respect, I am slightly more inclined to believe the current edition of Florida Firearms Law, Use, and Ownership than someone on an internet forum. I'd be very interested in seeing proof to the contrary, in which case I will gladly admit my error.

Wes: Nothing I said was intended to imply that carrying a loaded handgun in your center console is illegal. That requires a lid or cover to be opened to gain access to the firearm.

I was referring to things such as carrying a handgun in a paper bag, or in a holster under the seat where it can be accessed by the driver.

Unfortunately, Alexander v. State is not a DCA decision available online for me to provide you a link to. You would actually have to visit a law library to review it. The best I can do is refer you to the last paragraph on page 5 of this Florida court decision, which refers back to Alexander v. State.

http://www.law.fsu.edu/library/flsupct/80174/80174rep.pdf

It states: Lastly, the Respondent's assertion ... that the use of the words "or is otherwise" refers back to "securely encased", clearly places the cart before the horse and overlooks this court's decision in Alexander v. State, where this court held that the use of those words indicated that the primary requirement of the statute was that the firearm not be "readily accessible for immediate use" and not ... a requirement that it be securely encased by being within a container.

 

[benEzra]

If it's in a snap holster under the seat, and it's snapped, the gun is both "securely encased" and "not readily accessible," using the statuatory definition. If it is in an unsecured holster under the seat, though, then you would be in violation.

I agree that getting the CHL is the way to go, but until you receive it, FL's laws on vehicle carry are not that bad.

 

[xm15]

If it's in a snap holster under the seat, and it's snapped, the gun is both "securely encased" and "not readily accessible," using the statuatory definition.

This is why case law is important. A handgun in a holster under the driver seat, whether or not snapped, has already been determined to be "readily accessible for immediate use", and a CCW violation. Unless you encounter a generous LEO or have a CWP, this is almost a surefire way to find yourself arrested & convicted for illegal CCW in Florida.

In fact, you really don't even need to refer to case law on this one. A pistol under the driver seat is "within such close proximity and in such a manner that it can be retrieved and used as easily and quickly as if carried on the person."

That is the definition of "readily accessible for immediate use."

 

[Wes Janson]

This is why case law is important. A handgun in a holster under the driver seat, whether or not snapped, has already been determined to be "readily accessible for immediate use", and a CCW violation. Unless you encounter a generous LEO or have a CWP, this is almost a surefire way to find yourself arrested & convicted for illegal CCW in Florida.

Sorry, but again Gutmacher flat-out disagrees with you. To quote page 83:

QUESTION: Is there any special place the firearm or weapon must be kept, if I have it in a securely encased bag or holster?

ANSWER: Nope. Anywhere you want except on your person. It can even be under the seat - as long as it's securely encased in a container or box with with a closed lid; or a zippered, snapped, or Velcro-closed pouch, holster, or gun case.

Gutmacher says it's legal. You're saying it's "already been determined" to be a CCW violation. Saying that it's readily accessible for immediate use doesn't matter, because Gutmacher clearly states that either condition is acceptable; securely encased or not readily accessible. Again, from page 83:

You can have a firearm in a vehicle securely encased, not readily accessible for immediate use, or both. Any combination is legal.

In all honesty though, all of this is conjecture because all of it depends on whether you get unlucky and wind up with an ignorant or pissy officer. You can not only follow the letter of the law but also go out of your way to be politically correct, and if you get stopped by someone who wants to ruin your day, none of it's going to help much in the short term.

 

[Larenegade]

I appreciate the responses from all. I have been thru the ringer and hope no one else meets what I did. I obviously did have the weapon on my person. I was trying to cooperate because I was not quilty of anything nor did I have anything to hide, I was going to shoot on Christmas Day! What can go wrong sitting in my truck waiting on someone. I quess it depends on who you are waiting for. I got screwed because I didn't have a permit. Meeting a young officer with an agenda put me in a vulnerable position. I have 8 years of doing his job and should have had a permit. I wasn't trying to conceal the pistol and didn't know the law. I thought I was legal as I have done this most of my life and every Christmas for the last 30 years. But that was in other states and not in
SW Florida. If I would have gottewn out of the truck on the way to shoot I would have taken the gun off. I was asked while I was in the drivers seat and had never gotten out of the vehicle until the officer told me to get out. There had been no reason in my mind that I was concealing a weapon, I wasn't trying too. It all boils down to what the officer's decision is and the amount of money you have to pay a lawyer if he wants to use his authority. Then the decision of taking a chance in court of having a felony record made it not worth fighting and lesson learned, I had to take a misdemeaner charge and hope nothing but a fine. The officer said the final thing, "Well he isn't going to help so I guess I'll just charge him with CCW!", and he did. I had no knowledge of his questions and he wanted an arrest. Young cops are different than seasoned officers. Needless to say the report was totally different than reality. I have witnessed reports written with embellishment and imagination many times and this one was in another dimention. Nothing close to what occurred. But the object is to make the charges stick and make it appear as bad as possible isn't it? I haven't been to any academy in Florida so I don't know the training regs for Florida.
I didn't try to hide anything and talked. Bad guys use the 5th but I wasn't in that mindset. Lawyer advice was that I should have not gotten out of the truck or acknowledged I had a gun. If they had dragged me out then he could have said my rights were violated. I should have asked for a lawyer and not agreed to talk to them unless attorney was present, then they would have either had to arrest me or let me go. I will consider his words next time.
And one wonders why people have attitudes about law enforcement! Some make it obvious. I have told every officer I come in contact with I was armed if I am asked and sometimes before asked. I would want the same courtesy to me. It eliminates problems.
This has been a nightmare. I have always been law abiding and have wrote enough statements and made enough stops and know what getting the shaft is. I had just spent 4 years of medical nightmare and was just getting well enough to go shoot. I should have known not to display a NRA sticker and show I support something I treasure and enjoy having the right to have. (WHAT) I wasn't out committing any wrong and was on the way to shoot at a range. I have always been open about everything when dealing with a officer but have a different opinion of law enforcement in SW Florida. I will be looking and thinking different from now on.
The biggest issue is the loss of my exspensive custom 1911. I don't know the forfeiture laws enough it and it turned out the lawyer I hired wasn't concerned about the gun. He just wanted a easy case and I didn't know about loosing the gun until 5 minutes before court. I was facing a felony and I was told take a misdemeanor and loose your gun or go to court and face a felony and the lawyer knew I wouldn't take that chance. He got his money and didn't care after that. That happens when you don't know anyone in the area and have alot of money.

I just wonder what the law is about confiscation of the gun. Is there anything in the law about the confiscation of property in the charge of CCW. Is the weapon always confiscated or is there any recourse to get the gun back? This was the worst part of the whole incident.

 

[Wes Janson]

In all likelihood, no. There might be some way to get it back, but I'd guess that the legal fees would probably outweigh the value of the weapon, even if it is a several thousand dollar custom 1911.

 

[sig228]

Bottom Line

My three step rule for Florida:

1. You want a gun in your car:
Keep it in the glove box or center console.

2. You want a gun on your person:
Get a CWP and keep it concealed.

3. Anything else:
Just keep the gun in your zippered range bag.

Any cop with a problem with my three step rule simply doesn't know the law, or doesn't care about. If its the latter, there are quite a few good attorneys out there that would love a nice civil lawsuit.