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Carry Options... Is your gun "shootable" under stress?

Smart Carry

I worked in a very active and physical job, and for those times my gun had to be absolutely out of sight, this was the ticket. Very comfortable, and quick to access too. Fastest "pocket" draw, from any position going.

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Glock 26
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Glock 19

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Must be a body type fitment situation there. When I've tried that in some of the positions I get into to work on machinery, it pinches and pressures the livin' crap out of my nether regions. And I wear boxers, so nothing is held "high and tight" if ya know wut I mean.
 
I rarely had any comfort issues, and I was manhandling all sorts of awkward stuff, constantly squatting, getting back up, climbing in and out of structures, boxes, pipes, equipment, etc.

It doesn't look like it would be comfortable or doable, but its really deceptive. And like anything else, once you find its sweet spot and get used to it, you don't even know its there.
 
Mine yes, Glock 19 minimum.

For others the selection process is apparently (when not at work, if they still do):
shootable under stress
enough rounds on board

"wouldn't want to get shot by it"
fits in pocket

I have to pocket carry at work, cannot let clients know I am carrying. Sometimes situations dictate how/what you carry, good for you that you can always carry a Glock 19. Some of us don’t have that option every day.

If only I had addressed that (work) in my post you quoted.
 
I shot that pistol and was totally surprised that I had missed all 5 shots on my target at 25 yards. I had to finally move to the 5 yard line and still I missed two shots. In my opinion, for me, this is a gun that I would never feel comfortable carrying, I would feel more comfortable with a 22LR, because I know I can hit at 25 yards with it.
No offense, but a j frame is capable of much better accuracy with practice. I shoot mine extensively both from the draw and in slow fire plinking at rocks. It is certainly harder to shoot than a 4” 357, but I am not convinced it is any less mechanically accurate.

The J frame has a niche but it is woefully inadequate compared to even a Glock 26.

I would be interested to know what the most commonly recovered gun on criminals is. I would bet it is Glock 9mm, Taurus G3C, and Smith SD 9 or 40 in that order.

If you are attacked by an unarmed attacker, the J frame will probably be fine. If he has a knife or gun, you will need a lot of luck or skill on your side to prevail with a less powerful gun holding 30% of the ammo.

In general, I think pocket carry is an easy way to tote a talisman. A j frame AIWB at least gives you 5 shots.
 
No offense, but a j frame is capable of much better accuracy with practice. I shoot mine extensively both from the draw and in slow fire plinking at rocks. It is certainly harder to shoot than a 4” 357, but I am not convinced it is any less mechanically accurate.

The J frame has a niche but it is woefully inadequate compared to even a Glock 26.

I would be interested to know what the most commonly recovered gun on criminals is. I would bet it is Glock 9mm, Taurus G3C, and Smith SD 9 or 40 in that order.

If you are attacked by an unarmed attacker, the J frame will probably be fine. If he has a knife or gun, you will need a lot of luck or skill on your side to prevail with a less powerful gun holding 30% of the ammo.

In general, I think pocket carry is an easy way to tote a talisman. A j frame AIWB at least gives you 5 shots.
I carry a six-shot Colt Agent in my strong side front pocket 99% of the time. It certainly is capable of respectable accuracy within 15 yards. I don’t feel under gunned carrying it, as I see it for what it is … a bad breath distance tool. I don’t ever envision rushing into an active shooter situation or engaging a raging mob of jihadists. Ever. I keep my head on a 360-degree swivel and never frequent places where trouble is likely to be found, day or night.
 
Another thing to consider. I see a surprising number of malfunctions in police shooting videos. Makes me think they have never fired their guns from anything other than a firm two-handed hold while in an orthodox standing position. If you're going to bet your life on a gun, you should do a good bit of practice one-handed and weak-handed to make sure if you have to shoot like that in a gunfight, your gun will work properly.

Yep. That was why in the LE training and quals we often varied the scenario circumstances so more types of movement, postures and 'cover' would be involved. Different postures and adapting to different cover (and movement) could sometimes make the shooters aware of the need to keep their skills 'flexible' when adjusting to the needs of the environment and actions going on. ;)

One of the things not commonly visible in the BWC video is how cops grasp and draw their weapons, and getting that initial grasp and grip can be critical to getting the gun to function properly, after all. It wasn't uncommon on the training & quals ranges to have to correct how a lot of guys & gals would occasionally have issues with their initial grasp, especially while using various security levels of holsters, or having to deal with the use of cold weather jackets or car coats (or plainclothes cover garments).

I initially chuckled when I saw how a lot of plainclothes folks showed up wearing their uniform gun belts, and removed their coats, for quals. They said it was easier for them to get a grip and draw using their uniform gear, and the decision-makers above my pay grade decided they could have the option of using either plainclothes or uniform gear (since they might always have to don their uniform gear for other assignments and situations, etc). Drawing from under one or more layers of cover garments can certainly affect how someone gets their primary grasp.

That was why I jumped at the chance to get myself, and another guy from my bureau, to be scheduled to attend an interesting outside training class one time. It was designed for plainclothes, UC and 'street enforcement' units who had to wear cover garments that covered their weapons. All the shooting done that week had to be done using 'realistic cover garments', specifically prohibiting the use of any 'token' cover, like lightweight camera or fishing vests. I didn't want to subject my suit/sport coats to the outdoor conditions on that agency's different outdoor ranges in that weather, so instead I wore a long ski parka, as well as a couple layers of either sweatshirt or zippered fleece under the ski parka. If I could run the courses using that multi-layered cover, I figured my normal suit/sport coats or an ocasional dress rain coat wouldn't present any problems. ;) It also kept me warmer during that winter class.

Bottom line, it's often easy to see how some stoppages and other functioning issues visible in a lot of the OIS videos happened due to grip issues, including both primary and support hand positioning. These are the sort of things that can unconsciously occur when the fur starts to fly and people rush themselves faster than they've practiced to perform. Well, a little adrenaline dump and fear can also have an effect, too. ;)
 
No offense, but a j frame is capable of much better accuracy with practice. I shoot mine extensively both from the draw and in slow fire plinking at rocks. It is certainly harder to shoot than a 4” 357, but I am not convinced it is any less mechanically accurate.

The J frame has a niche but it is woefully inadequate compared to even a Glock 26.

I would be interested to know what the most commonly recovered gun on criminals is. I would bet it is Glock 9mm, Taurus G3C, and Smith SD 9 or 40 in that order.

If you are attacked by an unarmed attacker, the J frame will probably be fine. If he has a knife or gun, you will need a lot of luck or skill on your side to prevail with a less powerful gun holding 30% of the ammo.

In general, I think pocket carry is an easy way to tote a talisman. A j frame AIWB at least gives you 5 shots.
Your statements are correct, but that is why I made the distinction that "FOR ME" I would not feel comfortable carrying it. For most of my life I carried a full size 1911, and then for the last 10 years it is the 686+ with 3" barrel. With practice any firearm is suitable for protection even the 642 with the less than 2" barrel. I just know that I would never carry a firearm that I find more painful to shoot even though it is a 38 than full loads .357. It is all about personal preference and when it comes to the 642 airweight, it simply not my cup of tea. I have a 640 that I do shoot 38's or lighter loads that I can shoot better but it is also heavier and not painful to shoot like the 642. The J frame is much better of delivering better accuracy than I can deliver. No offense is or was taken.
 
The 'Brain shot at 25 yards' was my standard for my duty weapon back when dinosaurs walked the Earth. It was not my standard for back-up or off duty because it was unrealistic given that one of the constraints on those guns was that they be easily concealed and genuinely concealable options were less capable than they are today; they seldom had really good sights. Modern guns have gotten better; in my prime I could probably have made the shot with a gun like the P-365. I probably couldn't today because of age, vision and other limitations.

Thing is it is just as important to be aware of your limitations as it is to push your skills to the utmost. If a head shot at 25 yards isn't doable then I know to not do it and need to work around that lack of ability if possible. If it takes me 2 seconds to draw and fire an aimed shot I know I need to wait for or create a two-second window. I need to train not just to expand my abilities, but to understand my limitations so that I can work around them.

There are a few situations (damn few) where the only gun I can carry is a tiny 'mouse-gun.' This is not carried as an alternative to a more capable weapon, it's as an alternative to being unarmed. Even though these instances are rare I train with the gun to explore my abilities and the limitations with it. I need to know what can and can't be done so I know what I am working with if I ever need it. Head shots at 25 yards ain't gonna happen, but I can quickly and consistently place head shots at 7 yards, which is important to know.
it's as an alternative to being unarmed.
That's pretty much right on point.
 
Your statements are correct, but that is why I made the distinction that "FOR ME" I would not feel comfortable carrying it. For most of my life I carried a full size 1911, and then for the last 10 years it is the 686+ with 3" barrel. With practice any firearm is suitable for protection even the 642 with the less than 2" barrel. I just know that I would never carry a firearm that I find more painful to shoot even though it is a 38 than full loads .357. It is all about personal preference and when it comes to the 642 airweight, it simply not my cup of tea. I have a 640 that I do shoot 38's or lighter loads that I can shoot better but it is also heavier and not painful to shoot like the 642. The J frame is much better of delivering better accuracy than I can deliver. No offense is or was taken.

I also don't shoot well with J-Frame snubby 38's. I refuse to carry a point blank "get off me" gun as a primary handgun.
If I cant hit at 25yds with it, to me it's not worth carrying.
 
Bodycam videos have revealed that many cops have "shootable" problems with full-size duty pistols, usually caused by poor grip due to the haste of drawing to engage a sudden spontaneous threat. Magazines fall out and stoppages happen at a much greater rate of incidence than what happens on the shooting range.

This is why many folks are starting to carry a revolver because a revolver is finger powered and isn't dependent on acquiring a proper grip like an auto pistol does.
 
Bodycam videos have revealed that many cops have "shootable" problems with full-size duty pistols, usually caused by poor grip due to the haste of drawing to engage a sudden spontaneous threat. Magazines fall out and stoppages happen at a much greater rate of incidence than what happens on the shooting range.

This is why many folks are starting to carry a revolver because a revolver is finger powered and isn't dependent on acquiring a proper grip like an auto pistol does.
Seems to be more of a training issue than a hardware issue. I hadn't heard that revolvers are becoming more popular. Just out of curiosity, how do you know?
 
In my case, I must answer yes. Not to compare to a shoot or be killed situation, but I "hunt" a lot of snowshoe hares in the winter months with both my standard carry FNS 9mm and my "bear" gun, a 6" barreled .357 loaded with 38. Both are stuffed with hardball for rabbit outings. It's not a stalking or sneaking scenario, more of a quick draw and hail Mary shot as they bust from cover. There is not time for thought or aim, simply instinct. Surprising the hit percentage I can get, approaching 25%, drawing the handgun, tracking and firing in one relatively fluid motion. I did have one hostile encounter with a bear some years ago that was a high stress situation using my 9mm carry piece. It was killing a friends dog. The draw, aim, and firing was almost automatic, with a quick pause to ensure safe field of fire in the chaos. I delivered 2 precision shots at roughly 25 yards, dispatching the black bear cleanly. I've also drawn both guns in an unexpected bear encounter, and been confident and prepared to do as needed if things went sideways.

I shoot both guns a lot, generally at improvised targets. Both controlled, aimed, slow fire, and draw and fire. My practice includes both precision longer shots and loosely formatted close drills. I even shoot in the dark. I try to get in at least 100 rounds with each monthly. They are third hands. It helps that both are Butt simple guns with little to go wrong, but I think familiarity with the piece and muscle memory are more important given a decently functional carry piece. I used to do very interesting and stupid good things with a CZ 52 when I was poor and it was the only handgun I owned. 5cent ammo helped there.
 
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Interesting assertation, Mr. Dodson. I know of nobody but myself who actually carries a round gun occasionally. In fact, I've heard more and more from people watching the news that they are more interested in increasing their available round count. Personally, if my Dept told me to carry a wheelgun, which is NOT in the realm of impossibility, I would really spend much more time practicing reloads on the firing line, and carrying a New York Reload if possible.
This doesn't mean I think a revolver can't do the job, not at all, in fact.
 
Seems to be more of a training issue than a hardware issue. I hadn't heard that revolvers are becoming more popular. Just out of curiosity, how do you know?
How do I know? I'm a pistol instructor and, to stay on top of things, I keep my finger on the pulse of current trends.

Rapidly unfolding events combined with the extreme stress of possibly being murdered often causes the unexpected to happen in a time compressed situation, despite training.

Lots of stoppages with duty sized pistols in the videos below:


 
How do I know? I'm a pistol instructor and, to stay on top of things, I keep my finger on the pulse of current trends.
I see. No offense intended. Just wondered if there was any hard data on that. Sales figures or something of that nature.
Lots of stoppages with duty sized pistols in the videos below:


In fairness to the full size semi auto side, there are a whole lot more semi autos than revolvers out there in police hands these days, so it follows that there would be more videos of stoppages with them.
 
There are shots I'd feel much more confident about taking carrying my full size guns vs my 44 Special 2". At 25 yards in a self defense situation I'd like to be able to make center mass hits. Head shots, let alone "brain" shots, I'm not betting on it.
I compete. I sometimes shoot some 25 yard head shots practicing. But seriously. If you shoot 10 times, with a break in between shots one shot at a time, fairly quickly on the draw, how many times will you make the head shot or the brain shot? I can make the shot but certainly not 10 for 10.
 
Every situation is its own critter and you get what you get, and there's no telling what that might be. People need to get their heads out of the "this is what you can expect, and all you need be worried about" internet thing you always hear and embrace a broader reality.

Cops may have their ROE, but your ROE will be whatever they may need to be, and other than the initial reason for it, there is nothing defensive about self-defense. Doesnt matter who you might be, that will always be the same, and you need to have that mindset.

If you happen to fit the "Joe Sixpack" description, it would be wise to lose the extra 40, choose a better weapon and gear, and work at keeping your skill level up with it. Learning to keep an open mind and being able to go with the flow, instead of expecting a specific, pre-conceived script, would be a good thing too.
Well said sir.
 
Off duty I don’t carry my Glock 17 with reflex sight but I do almost as well with an Sig P365XL accuracy and speed wise. As far as 25 yard headshots, well at the range I’m pretty damn good at that but under stress God only knows and I hope not to find out.

I try my best to pack more than a “save my own bacon” (see what I did there?) piece when at all practical.
 
The 'Brain shot at 25 yards' was my standard for my duty weapon back when dinosaurs walked the Earth. It was not my standard for back-up or off duty because it was unrealistic given that one of the constraints on those guns was that they be easily concealed and genuinely concealable options were less capable than they are today; they seldom had really good sights. Modern guns have gotten better; in my prime I could probably have made the shot with a gun like the P-365. I probably couldn't today because of age, vision and other limitations.

Thing is it is just as important to be aware of your limitations as it is to push your skills to the utmost. If a head shot at 25 yards isn't doable then I know to not do it and need to work around that lack of ability if possible. If it takes me 2 seconds to draw and fire an aimed shot I know I need to wait for or create a two-second window. I need to train not just to expand my abilities, but to understand my limitations so that I can work around them.

There are a few situations (damn few) where the only gun I can carry is a tiny 'mouse-gun.' This is not carried as an alternative to a more capable weapon, it's as an alternative to being unarmed. Even though these instances are rare I train with the gun to explore my abilities and the limitations with it. I need to know what can and can't be done so I know what I am working with if I ever need it. Head shots at 25 yards ain't gonna happen, but I can quickly and consistently place head shots at 7 yards, which is important to know.
This is rarely addressed.

Recognizing your limitations and shooting within your limitations in a defensive encounter is just as important as improving your limitations in training.

If someone can't hit anything better than a man sized target at 3 yards, yeah, that could be better. But as long as he engages a guy attacking him at an ATM, and doesn't try to stop a guy across the food court at 40 yards, he hasn't made this someone else's problem.
 
If someone can't hit anything better than a man sized target at 3 yards, yeah, that could be better. But as long as he engages a guy attacking him at an ATM, and doesn't try to stop a guy across the food court at 40 yards, he hasn't made this someone else's problem.
Two things here. One is an armed civilian knowing his limitations.
The other being a legal and ethical one. As armed civilians, we're not obliged to ride to the sound of the guns, and there's always the chance of stumbling into the middle of something we don't understand.
Taking a longish shot, at someone not demonstrably posing a direct threat, can also make a problem.
Reflecting on this thread, I did make a point of firing my BodyGuard weak hand and strong, and I've fitted it with good sights. But pocket carry is really all that is practical for me, though sometimes that goes to a basic 365.
What I carry does get shot, in haste, to stay in practice, and to instill confidence.
Moon
 
How do I know? I'm a pistol instructor and, to stay on top of things, I keep my finger on the pulse of current trends.

Rapidly unfolding events combined with the extreme stress of possibly being murdered often causes the unexpected to happen in a time compressed situation, despite training.

Lots of stoppages with duty sized pistols in the videos below:



I went and watched those videos. I don't know who you're talking to but there is no way a single officer watching or taking part any of those videos would suddenly say "I want a 6 shot revolver in a gun fight."
My reaction watching those 2 videos is, why did no one grab an AR15? Yes I understand they needed to get out of their vehicles ASAP. My guess they don't have them in their vehicles (aren't authorized) or don't have them readily available in there vehicles.

The officer that kept dropping magazines - he needs more practice with that gun. Looks like a Sig 320 based on the trigger. Why does he only have 1 spare magazine?
Sig P320.jpg

I spy an aftermarket magwell funnel:
Magwell funnel.jpg
I bet he also has an extended mag release on that gun and that plus lack of training is why he's dropping mags.
 
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One thing Mas (and others stress) is that you need realistic training with the gun. We know that most carriers do not do this. Then practice - perhaps not of just shooting groups at the square rang.

We ask about EDC and get lists of guns. A proportion are more COSplay and not optimal. Folks who say they carry (if they are to be believed), two SAA Colts, Makarovs - for example. Yes, they are guns and go bang - but not optimal.

A quality semi and extra mag - covered up. Or for NPE/dress constraints - a pocket J frame or reasonable pocket semi. Then train for it. A big old belt revolver - limited capacity - one opponent gun - yes, retro fun but not optimal.

There is a significant J frame coterie in the training world. Their take is that they can be shot decently IF you train up. Also, they acknowledge they are going for the odds of a single opponent, few shots needed risk most of the time.

That's my take.
Hey, don't insult the Makarov. Back in the 90s and early 00s. That was a reliable and affordable CCW piece. I carried a GDR Mak for a bit back in the early 00s. Same way as carrying a SIG P230. Spare mag in back pocket, OWB leather holster, etc.

As for carrying a big clunker of a revolver. I do it daily and I do it in classes meant for autos. I keep up and in some cases, I smoke 'em.

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It comes down to training. Equipment doesn't bet skill. Plenty of people have a "quality semi and extra mag" and have no skill whatsoever.

They're cosplaying too, just with modern kit.

Buying a tricked out ZEV GLOCK with lightening cuts and a RDS does not make one John Wick or Jerry Mickulek. Actually putting in the time and training does. And it doesn't matter with what. Because fundamentals are fundamentals. Trigger control, sight picture, grip, etc.
 
OWB for me, but I like it that way, since I started carrying a sidearm legally 40 years ago. One minor point about Mas' article. If you are not an off duty cop, how you respond to a shooting incident will not be the same as a civilian. The officer will be marching towards the sounds of guns - Joe Sixpack, with 40 extra pounds around the middle, a SiG 365, no spare mag, and a wife and young son with him at the mall will be responding VERY differently. I doubt he would be trying head shots at 25 yards, but probably gut shots at 5!
When I was a cop, being off-duty was still different after I got married.

Off-duty, I was nine times out of then with my wife and daughter. I wouldn't go charging gung-ho into a situation with them in tow. I wasn't in uniform and blue on blue incidents were/are common. Uniforms showing up and me in civvies can lead to me being mistaken for the suspect and shot.

I instructed my wife, that if the SHTF while we're out and about. The first priority is getting her and our daughter to safety. After that, knowing they're reasonably safe, that's when the hat changed from husband/father to cop and I go back in.

Back in my single days, my only worry while off-duty was being mistaken for a suspect.

Heck, when I was plainclothes, I was worried about uniforms smoke-checking me because they wouldn't see the badge on my belt or around my neck.

The biggest danger I faced was the fact I worked for the state. The local uniforms didn't know me.
 
When I was a cop, being off-duty was still different after I got married.

Off-duty, I was nine times out of then with my wife and daughter. I wouldn't go charging gung-ho into a situation with them in tow. I wasn't in uniform and blue on blue incidents were/are common. Uniforms showing up and me in civvies can lead to me being mistaken for the suspect and shot.

I instructed my wife, that if the SHTF while we're out and about. The first priority is getting her and our daughter to safety. After that, knowing they're reasonably safe, that's when the hat changed from husband/father to cop and I go back in.

Back in my single days, my only worry while off-duty was being mistaken for a suspect.

Heck, when I was plainclothes, I was worried about uniforms smoke-checking me because they wouldn't see the badge on my belt or around my neck.

The biggest danger I faced was the fact I worked for the state. The local uniforms didn't know me.
^This.
 
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