Carrying a 1911 cocked and NOT locked?

[srawl]

I am just wondering what your opinions are about this. For those who are against even carrying "cocked and locked," you need not reply.

Isnt an "unlocked" 1911 not as safe (or safer) than glock or m&p? With those if (you are stupid) and hook something on the trigger it will shoot. With a 1911, you have to push and pull in an opposite direction to shoot it (grip safety).

So lets "assume" you are responsible when handling, am I correct with my thinking?

The "why" is for 1 less step to go wrong if drawing and engaging is necessary. I also understand train,train,train but I have seen on more than one occasion an experienced IDPA shooter "forget" the thumb safety on the first shot.

Thanks for your thoughts.

 

[JERRY]

grip safeties are precarious in my opinion. if not gripped right and the gun is rendered inoperable; this created the evolution of the "bump" seen on new production guns.

then there are 1911s that are designed with no grip safety, making them similar to a Hi-power gun. the grip safety is the link between the trigger and sear and not something I'd rely on alone as a "safety". the thumb safety blocks the hammer and is a more positive safety.

 

[shiftyer1]

When I bought my first 1911 the spring that operates the grip safety wasn't bent right and the safety was iffy at best. Soon after I bought it I took it to shoot and had it go off before I was ready.

Honestly I think the thumb safety is more important than the grip safety! I don't carry my six shooters cocked and semi locked either!

 

[rcmodel]

Soon after I bought it I took it to shoot and had it go off before I was ready.

The grip safety had nothing at all to do with that.

What you are saying is, you took the thumb safety off and pulled the trigger before you were ready.

rc

 

[NWcityguy2]

If you think it is safe, then it is your decision. I don't carry my 1911, but my carry gun (Ruger sr9c) does have a frame safety which I don't use. It's not much different than that, with the exception that there isn't a long standing tradition of carrying a sr9c cocked and un-locked.

I wouldn't put too much credit into what you've seen someone do at IDPA. I've seen people repeatedly try to shoot an empty gun. I've also designed courses of fire that simply state, "Engage all targets using cover and tactical priority," only to have people ask me which target they have to shoot first. I myself have tried to reload a rifle with a pistol magazine. These things happen, and are (usually) good learning experiences. I wouldn't worry about any of them unless they were repeatedly happening to me.

 

[tipoc]

Isnt an "unlocked" 1911 not as safe (or safer) than glock or m&p? With those if (you are stupid) and hook something on the trigger it will shoot. With a 1911, you have to push and pull in an opposite direction to shoot it (grip safety).

There is no "push and pull" involved in gripping a 1911. You grip the gun as you grip any other gun. The grip safety is disengaged when you grip the gun and depress it. You pull the trigger when you are ready. No "push and pull" is involved.

A cocked and unlocked 1911 is safe for many things but to be carried in a holster on the hip it is not a good way to do things. Unlike striker fired guns 1911s and the Hi-Power and others have hammers and when the hammer is cocked the gun is ready to fire. This is not the case with, for example Glocks which are not fully cocked until the hammer is pulled.

Some who do not carry or work with 1911s worry themselves that they will forget to disengage the thumb safety in a moment of need. Get used to disengaging the safety when you have something to shoot at and you will be fine.

tipoc

 

[srawl]

My point was if the grip safety wasnt "pushed" in when the trigger is "pulled" it will not shoot.

I cant think of an ND situation with a 1911 that wouldnt happen with a glock.

 

[tipoc]

But as I mentioned the Glock is not fully cocked while the 1911 is. It is also a weak point of the Glock that it is prone to certain types of errors of mishandling. The most important being that it is easy to put a finger on the trigger and pull it when a person does not want to.

It is harder to do this with the 1911 or the BHP which have external safeties which are particularly easy to disengage. They have an edge on safety because of this. But only so long as folks do not bypass them or mis-understand their use.

I would not carry a 1911 cocked and unlocked in a holster or a pocket any more than I would carry a cocked da revolver in the same manner.

tipoc

 

[1911 guy]

If I may be blunt:

You're trying to solve a software issue (training and familiarization with the 1911) with a hardware solution (circumventing a safety device).

 

[NWcityguy2]

Some striker fired guns are fully cocked at rest. Some striker fired guns have triggers lighter than 1911s. This discussion isn't so much about striker fired guns in general.

I personally wouldn't carry a 1911 without the safety on, but I haven't used the same safety on my carry gun for years. This is a discussion more about tradition than safety. Either way can be carried safely.

 

[srawl]

I read some people debating the cocked and locked carry and i was the one out of line saying if you are the type to have an ND (poor trigger finger control) it doesnt matter if its locked or unlocked. I dont personally carry a 1911. I am simply checking to see if i am alone in my thoughts.

 

[Deaf Smith]

I am just wondering what your opinions are about this. For those who are against even carrying "cocked and locked," you need not reply.

Isnt an "unlocked" 1911 not as safe (or safer) than glock or m&p? With those if (you are stupid) and hook something on the trigger it will shoot. With a 1911, you have to push and pull in an opposite direction to shoot it (grip safety).

So lets "assume" you are responsible when handling, am I correct with my thinking?

The "why" is for 1 less step to go wrong if drawing and engaging is necessary. I also understand train,train,train but I have seen on more than one occasion an experienced IDPA shooter "forget" the thumb safety on the first shot.

Thanks for your thoughts.

If you pack a Colt 1911 series 80 or later you have a firing pin lock in it.

With such a 1911 you can carry in 'condition zero' and I see no problem as the grip safety, which blocks the trigger from being pressed, will also now keep the firing pin from traveling forward even if somehow the hammer falls.

And that is why my carry ready 1911 is a Colt series 90 Combat Commander. I still use the thumb safety and condition one.

Deaf

 

[JTQ]

You can carry your 1911 anyway you want, but there is practically no one that is a knowledgeable 1911 user that will recommend carrying a 1911 in Condition 0.

...I have seen on more than one occasion an experienced IDPA shooter "forget" the thumb safety on the first shot.

I see this comment often. I also see comments all over the various forums such as…

"I never conceal carry my 1911, I use it only for gun games. I prefer to carry my Glock/M&P/SIG/etc., for serious defensive use."

I suspect the guys you see forget to disengage the thumb safety at the IDPA events are only part time 1911 users. As a 1911 user, I find it hard to believe you'd forget to disengage the thumb safety. I find it more likely to forget to pull the trigger than work the thumb safety.

 

[45_auto]

the grip safety is the link between the trigger and sear and not something I'd rely on alone as a "safety". the thumb safety blocks the hammer and is a more positive safety.

The grip safety only prevents the trigger bow from moving rearward. It has nothing to do with linking the trigger and sear. You can completely remove the grip safety and the trigger bow will still trip the sear as normal.

The thumb safety blocks the SEAR, not the hammer. It prevents the sear from disengaging with the hammer, which in theory prevents the hammer from falling as long as neither is worn or breaks.

 

[71velle]

The experts on 1911s say locked is a must. A 1911 hos almost no take up where as a striker fired gun does. If you were to carry cocked and not locked be sure to check the operation of the grip safety I have seen 2 different 1911s have grip safety not work.

 

[kBob]

What I find funny about this whole thread is that in the way back some egg spurts suggested pinning the grip safety in so as to not have to worry about it not functioning when drawing and firing in the old competitions or "combat".

Correct me if I am wrong but didn't one or more of the early prototypes have NO safety at all? I believe some of the earlier "Military Model" .38 ACP guns had either no safety or a weird flip up behind the front sight that the hammer would fall on as a safety.

During my own brief grip safety bad ungawa phase I carried in a holster that had a thumb break strap that went between the cocked hammer and the rear of the slide. I might trust a grip safety as another layer of defense against NDs in such a holster as when said holster get old they get flexible enough to allow the slide safety to be pushed off through body movement.

One of the things that made me want to have all the safeties I could was a buddy's Star that was in a bell pouch with no built in holster or sepperate holster that had the slide safety on. He took the thing off to ride in a compact car and set it on the floor behind him. Apparently the slide safety came off and of course the Star has no grip safety. A pencil also loose in the bag managed to go through the trigger guard and during a sharp turn there was enough inertia to cause the death of the belt pouch and an old fiber can of motor oil and create a new vent in the rear seat drive shaft hump. This also impressed my buddy with the need for hearing protection.....

I rather LIKE having BOTH a grip safety and a slide safety.

-kBob

 

[CoalTrain49]

I suspect the guys you see forget to disengage the thumb safety at the IDPA events are only part time 1911 users. As a 1911 user, I find it hard to believe you'd forget to disengage the thumb safety. I find it more likely to forget to pull the trigger than work the thumb safety.

Good point. That's the reason I don't carry a 1911. I think it is perfectly safe in C1 but I shoot other pistols without a safety. That's a big problem.

C1 is the proper way to carry a 1911. C0 is just plain nuts (IMHO) and C2 requires cocking when being drawn so there is no real advantage there in eliminating the extra step.

If you are going to carry a 1911 it's probably best not to train with or shoot anything else. Lots of opportunity to space out on a safety or hammer in a tense situation.

Lets be honest here. If you have a safety on your carry gun it's one more step to master when you need to use it. I'm not saying it can't be done and lots of people do it, but be aware that it isn't for everyone. It's one of the reasons most LE agencies have moved away from the 1911. Most cops aren't gun enthusiasts and probably don't train enough to use a safety.

Just to be clear, I'm not 1911 bashing here. I take one to the range every time I go. I also take a 625 and a P-220. I like them all.

 

[ATLDave]

If you are going to carry a 1911 it's probably best not to train with or shoot anything else.

What about non-1911's with frame mounted, down-to-fire safeties like Browning Hi-Powers, CZ's, Tanfoglios, safety-equipped M&P's, some H&K's, etc.? As long as you ride the safety with the thumb, the "muscle memory" is the same.

 

[wojownik]

If I may be blunt:

You're trying to solve a software issue (training and familiarization with the 1911) with a hardware solution (circumventing a safety device).

You could have been even more blunt ... But I concur.

And technically I guess that would be a wetware solution...

 

[Evil-Twin]

I've been a 1911 45 ACP carrier for 50 years of my 70 years of life, 35 of those years as a civilian..
I carry for defensive protection... protection that occurs in close quarters, under 21 feet.... it also happens most often in under 20 seconds... there is absolutely no time to rack a slide, when under stress, if fact, its almost impossible to get the jump on a bad guy when he has already targeted you... I've carried cocked and locked for 35 years, I've never had an Accidental discharge, I've never shot myself...I carry every waking moment of every day... Training with a weapon that is not ready to go wont help you, when you are under stress.. a street attack can instantly take your heart rate from 60 beats per minute, to 180 BPM... you might as well be unarmed. Personal experience....24 months of combat experience, and two civilian personal attacks,, a car jacking, 30 years ago, and an attempted robbery 25 years ago... I didn't loose the car or a penny....

Im an old guy, but the difference between me an other seniors who look like victims is the fact that walk with confidence... I give eye contact to everyone in my view..IM very aware of my surroundings, I'm much more street wise to the potential of the world we live in. I do not walk like a victim... Bad guys are looking for those who walk with their eyes down hoping no one will approach them... its the body language that a confident person carries that keeps them safer than an unarmed person.. a victim tries to walk small... I confident armed person walks large.... shoulders back, tall and proud with a hint of... " IM ready for you " or I'm not going down easily...

carry deployment.

 

[imashooter]

In the military and at times I carried a 1911 in my government job I most always carried cocked only without incident that I recall. In the civvie world here I carry mostly cocked only on my property and probably 80% of the time when I go to town, etc I carry cocked & locked.

 

[Drail]

Ever see how John Browning chose to carry HIS personal 1910-1911 (with no thumb safety)? (hint - it wasn't cocked and locked and yes, there are photographs of it - his actual pistol is in the Browning Museum in Utah - just as he left it)

 

[tipoc]

Ever see how John Browning chose to carry HIS personal 1910-1911 (with no thumb safety)?

No I haven't seen it. Have a pic? Or care to inform us?

tipoc

 

[1911Tuner]

The thumb safety wasn't put there for cocked and locked carry. It was added as the last modification so that the cocked pistol could be quickly made safe and reholstered whenever a mounted cavalryman found himself needing both hands to hang onto a frightened horse.

The thumb safety does not...will not...block the hammer.

The grip safety is a drop safety...not a carry safety...made necessary because of the original heavy straight-line trigger.

The link between the trigger and the sear is the disconnect. The trigger doesn't trip the sear. The trigger never touches the sear. It presses on the disconnect and the disconnect transfers the movement to the sear.

The 1911 can be carried cocked and unlocked, though it's not advisable. Firing it still requires holding the gun in a firing grip and it still requires pulling the trigger.

Cock and holster an empty pistol and carry it around for a month. If nobody unholsters the gun and pulls the trigger, it'll still be cocked at the end of the trial.

Oh! And the "Locked" part of Cocked and Locked refers to the slide.

From the patents:

"Manual, slide locking safety."

 

[Drail]

I have read two accounts that claimed he carried with the hammer down and cocked as the gun was drawn and manually lowered the hammer before holstering. Kind of like the single action pistols the preceded the 1911. Folks were used to that mode of carry. With no high sweep beavertail in the way it's not difficult.