Carrying a 1911 without the safety on?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Isn't that why Colt made the series 80 because the series 70 had an issue with hammers on a loaded chamber?

Also, when did the half-cock hammer notch make it onto the 1911? Wasn't that also a safety feature to prevent a hammer from falling on a loaded chamber if the trigger wasn't pulled all the way back? I know it worked on the SAA and other SA revolvers so it would seem that the 1911 would also have that feature, being Sam is the originator of both firearms.
 
Sometimes I think they made the series 80 because they were "affraid" LOL!

I have taken my series 70 and beat the hammer with a brass hammer, and the gun never fired, I hit the thing with a 6x6 so hard that the hammer imbedded it self into the wood....still never fired. But then someone said "well it would fire if it fell on the muzzle" I told the guy to use his gun for that test! LOL!
But I see nothing wrong with the series 80's and I have no complaint with my Taurus for being a series 80.
Safeties are there for a reason......To use and to make safe.
and Hammers are there for a reason.....to cock and de-cock.

Remember the 1911 design is over 100 years old. Auto pistols were still "NEW" but hammered and hammerless guns were not. Think about it, are there any hammer guns that are made to carry cocked and locked? would you carry your lever gun cocked and locked? or how about your double barrelled shotgun? yes I know they come with and with-out hammers, but I'm sure you get my point. Only untill Jeff Cooper 100 years later told us to carry cocked and locked did people start doing it. Is it safe? well its as safe as any loaded firearm with its safety on. Now should you carry it in condition "0"? NO and NO again. You'll find out the reason its not safe when you blow a hole in yourself! but hope fully you wont wait for that to happen.

Look at some of the military "NON" flap holsters, Pilot and tanker type holsters. If used properly and the way they are intended to use, the strap goes across the "grip-safety" thus bypassing it as a safety. You think they want a pilot to shoot a hole in his chest? no you cock the gun as you draw it, just like a revolver. The same for all "Pre-Jeff Cooper" holsters, all locked the gun either behind the hammer or across the grip safety.

Face it the gun is 100 years old and a great design, but it was never intended to be carried cocked with no safety. In my eyes there are only 2 ways to carry a 1911, Loaded with the hammer down (the way it was made) or the Cooper way (cocked and locked) If you dont like those ways then carry something else.
 
Isn't that why Colt made the series 80 because the series 70 had an issue with hammers on a loaded chamber?

No, It was because the comapny's lawyers were having a cow. They even put a notice in the user manual that one should always carry their Colt pistol with the chamber empty. It's still there I believe.

Also, when did the half-cock hammer notch make it onto the 1911?

From the beginning, long before any .45 pistol was thought of. It was in his first design - a .38 pistol first made in 1900.

Wasn't that also a safety feature to prevent a hammer from falling on a loaded chamber if the trigger wasn't pulled all the way back?

Not exactly, it was there to catch the hammer if it fell from full-cock and followed the slide down when the pistol cycled.

know it worked on the SAA and other SA revolvers

It wasn't the half-cock, but rather the safety notch, and it didn't work well at all. If the revolver was dropped on a hard surface and it landed on the hammer spur, the blow could break the trigger and the gun would fire. That is why even today those who know what they are doing, and carry a Colt or Colt clone, always carry the hammer down on an empty chamber.

so it would seem that the 1911 would also have that feature, being Sam is the originator of both firearms.

Sam had nothing to do with either. He died in 1864. The Single Action Army model dates from 1873, the 1911 pistol from 1910. Colt's cap & ball revolvers had a half-cock notch for purposes of releasing the cylinder so that it could be loaded, but was not in any way a safety.
 
Old Fuff is correct, the Half cock on a revolver is very differant from the "half cock" (misnomer) of a 1911. The 1911 is more of a lip that will catch the hammer, but on a single action revolver it is a grove that will trap and keep the trigger from moving. You will also find this type design on old muskets and trapdoors. Old single actions should never be carried half cocked. Remington fixed the problem of carry'n six loaded in the cylenders by adding notches between each cylender that would trap the hammer between each cylender and it could be carried fully loaded with six, hammer down "IN" the safety.

Now the term Half Cock and the 1911 is a mis-nomer, it is really a Hammer stop or catch. DO NOT CARRY A 1911 ON THIS NOTCH!
 
I have taken my series 70 and beat the hammer with a brass hammer, and the gun never fired, I hit the thing with a 6x6 so hard that the hammer imbedded it self into the wood....still never fired.
1911's use what is called an inertia firing pin.
It is shorter then the hole in the slide it rides in, and held to the rear by the firing pin spring.

With the hammer all the way down, it is resting on the rear of the slide, (actually the firing pin retainer plate) with the FP spring compressed slightly. The other end of the FP is still inside the hole in the slide.

You could beat the hammer until it broke off and not have any effect at all on the firing pin or primer.

The only way the inertia FP can reach & set off a primer is through the inertia/momentum imparted to it by a full impact from the falling hammer.

Like a Q-ball hitting the 8-ball.

With the hammer resting on the Intercept notch (safety or 1/2 cock notch) a blow to the hammer could bend or break the sear or sear pin, and the hammer would then get a running start at the firing pin, and have enough energy to set of a round.

With it cocked & locked, the hammer spur (& sear) is protected from direct impact by the grip safety tang.

rcmodel
 
Last edited:
Actually, Old Fuff, I must correct you on one point you made:

William Fairbairn, who was in charge of weapons & training in the Shanghai (China) Municipal Police Department between the two World Wars, and later taught British Commandos, armed his officers with Colt .380 Pocket Model pistols that had been modified with a small screw so that the manual safety was blocked in the "off" position. Yes they were carried with the chamber loaded. At the time Shanghai was a world class crime-center, with numerous daily gunfights, and for the most part his officers survived.
Alas, this turns out not to be the case.

Fairbairn did indeed recommend the Colt automatic (he favored the .45 government model for most, and for those officers with very small hands, the 1908), and did indeed have the thumb safeties on his officers' weapons deactivated. He did not, however, allow them to carry the pistols with a round chambered in these now "safetyless" pistols.

On p. 18 of his book Shooting to Live (co-authored with E.A. Sykes), in discussing officer's initial training and familiarization with the automatic pistol Fairbairn states:

The insertion of the magazine and the loading and unloading of the pistol should then be demonstrated and explained. Each operation is described in detail and illustrated on the following pages. This is the moment for the instructor to point out and give the reason for the pinning down, out of action, of the safety-catch on the left-hand side of the pistol. He should make it perfectly clear that the pistol, when carried on service, should have a charged magazine inserted, but that it should never be carried with a round in the breech.
Those italics are not added by me either; they are Fairbairn's own.

He goes on to say that the instructor should demonstrate how to draw and fire a weapon in this condition, which he says "compares more than favourably with the alternative of drawing, pulling down a safety catch, and firing a round already in the breech. It should be shown, too, that the first method (with the breech empty) eliminates the fumbling and uncertainty inherent in the use of the safety catch."

It's possible he had a point there about the tiny, factory thumb safeties, which were the only kind available in the 1920s when he penned those words, and could indeed have been difficult to operate under stress. So he had his officers draw and rack the slide, kind of like the "Israeli draw," except that his men, just like everybody else in the '20s, were taught to shoot one handed.

But he certainly didn't advocate "cocked and unlocked" carry.
 
When I was in JROTC and ROTC (early '80's) I was trained to lower the 1911's hammer on a live round in the chamber, using both the much vilified "thumb method" as well as the "pinch method." I was also taught to cock the hammer upon the draw. IIRC the process was cock on draw, verify target, sweep safety, fire. I don't know what was taught in the military at the same time, I don't think they were still using the 1911 then.

I didn't learn about Cooper's "cocked and locked" philosophy until the late '90's. I understand his reasoning and it is the method I now adhere to despite all my previous training. However, I do find the cries about manually cocking ruining the sear and the danger of hammer-down on a live round to be quite overblown.

I've read many claims that JMB designed the 1911 to be carried in Con1, but I have never seen any real data to back that up. In this very thread, the design timeline and late additions outlined kind of screw-up the idea that any particular carry condition was pre-planned by anyone.
 
Last edited:
I have no problem carry'n any of my 1911's (70 or 80 series) with the hammer down on a live round, but then again like I said early'r I'm use to single action revolvers, so draw'n and cock'n is second nature to me. Browning put the hammer there for a reason. Might as well use it! LOL!
 
Some folks who are new to the 1911 will carry in "condition one" but with an empty chamber: thereby allowing themselves a time to get comfortable with this mode. Of course, as noted numerous times above, practice (correct practice), instruction and un-rushed transition time play a big part in making safe transition to one-in-the-chamber, cocked-and-locked (a.k.a "condition one") carry. Take your time and give yourself time to adjust and get comfortable. Good luck.
 
Another $0.02 -

If you carry in Condition 1, sooner or later you're going to have the "administrative problem" of unloading safely.

I believe this is very important. Even if you don't do it frequently, it shouldn't be something that is fumbled and inexact.

There are lots of different opinions on how to do this, and I believe there is no single correct method.

Some rack the slide sharply and catch the ejected round in mid-air. (I read that some IDPA safety officers had a problem with this, which tended to resemble a juggling act accompanied by poor muzzle control.)

Others simply eject it over a mattress or something which prevents damaging the round, and makes it easy to find.

I like to tip the pistol sideways and slowly rack the slide, "rolling" the round into my palm as I simultaneously apply the slide lock with my right thumb. If this is done slowly, I believe there is no danger to your left hand, but this has been brought up as a concern.
 
Isn't it standard to eject the mag, and then tilt the gun over to the right so you can slowly rack the slide and let the live round drop into your left hand as you cup the ejection port?

Unless you are ordered to rack the gun and let the round drop to the ground... which has been given a few times in my career by range masters... I don't know why anyone would do that.
 
For the OP:

Not intended as advice or instruction, but this works for me for unloading the 1911 style pistol.

Weapon pointed in safe direction and finger off trigger during entire process.

With weapon on safety, remove magazine and set aside.

Double check that mag is removed.

Release safety and eject chambered round and lock slide open.

Visually and physically inspect chamber to be certain it is empty, and check the magazine well (again) to be certain it is empty.

Once you are certain the pistol is empty, visually and physically check the chamber and mag well again to be absolutely certain the gun is empty.

With empty chamber and empty mag well, slowly lower slide.

Then slowly and carefully lower the hammer. I do not dry fire to lower the hammer at this point. This is unloading, not dry firing. Dry firing has its own safety protocol.

Once pistol is safely unloaded, recover ejected ammunition.

Don't try to catch the round. If you are on your own, you can usually insure that your ammunition will fall onto a surface where it will not be damaged while still maintaining strict muzzle discipline and muzzle control. If you are unloading under the direction of a range officer, do as instructed.

Not the smokin' hot gospel, just what works for me.

I'm sure this is a rehash of basics not needed by most posters. No offense intended for all of you who have mastered the 1911 beyond my poor abilities.

Respectfully,

DarkSoldier
 
Last edited:
rjsixgun said:
But then someone said "well it would fire if it fell on the muzzle" I told the guy to use his gun for that test! LOL!

In theory that might cause a discharge, but you sould need a very soft primer and a very high fall. Also add big fins to stabilize the gun so it landed muzzle down rather than heavy side down. I suspect somebody had an ND and blamed it on dropping a gun then sued someone, Colt found out about this lawsuit and decided to modify the 1911.

Old Fuff said:
No, It was because the comapny's lawyers were having a cow. They even put a notice in the user manual that one should always carry their Colt pistol with the chamber empty. It's still there I believe.

Isn't that common to all gun manuals now that they are extremely dangerous and should never be loaded and carried in any way.
 
1911 carry condition

I have carried 1911's for over 35 years and I would only carry cocked and locked. I can get it into shooting condition as fast as anyone with a Glock or similar double action pistols. Preparation is the key. Practice, Practice, Practice. Good shooting.
 
Some are bolder than most of us. Some time ago in the Texas Ranger Museum, Waco, Texas, I saw an engraved, fancy Colt 1911 formerly owned by a Ranger. The grip safety was taped down and the trigger guard was cut away.

His statement with the pistol stated something on the order of, "I had one not ready to shoot when I needed it, this one is ready to go"...more or less in those words.

I have carried mine Jeff Cooper style but it bothers me to find the holster or whatever has moved the safety to the off position. I am neither brave, foolish nor a Ranger.......................:uhoh:
 
I have carried mine Jeff Cooper style but it bothers me to find the holster or whatever has moved the safety to the off position. I am neither brave, foolish nor a Ranger.......................

Yeah, see, that's the nightmare scenario I have regarding condition one carry.

Murphy's Law!
 
And that my friends is why John Browning put a hammer on the gun!
I always carry all my auto pistols in Condition 2, Loaded with the hammer down on a loaded chamber. Perfectly safe to do and what the gun was made to do.

Remember Browning invented the gun and put a hammer on it, he already made "hammerless" models That the Govt did not accept. If he inteded it to be carried "Cocked & Locked" then why bother with an external hammer.

100 years later Jeff Cooper desided he knew better than the man that invented the gun and told the world that "His Way" is the only way to carry "cocked & locked". I wonder if Cooper carried his lever gun or his revolver like that. I'm willing to say he didnt.

Let your brain be your #1 saftey with any firearm, If you dont think its safe, then its not, and dont let anyone tell you differant.
 
Yeah, see, that's the nightmare scenario I have regarding condition one carry.
You still have to depress the grip safety and pull the trigger to make it fire.
Having the safety unintentionally wipe off is one reason I dont care for an ambi safety for myself.


Jim
 
I do not know who first said: "the only real safety is between your ears."; but I believe it.

I admit that all of my firearms training has taught the use of some sort of mechanical safety device. Included in that instruction was the warning never to depend upon the safety to prevent the firearm from discharging.

So, assuming that the firearm in question can not discharge unless the trigger is depressed, and assuming that the shooter does not place a finger on the trigger to depress the trigger until the front sight is on the target, and removes his finger from the trigger when the front sight is not on the target; then the bypassing of the slide safety should be safe.
 
Mechanically yes. A gun will sit there forever in a holster and it will never fire.

However, when you add the human element, no matter how experienced the operator, there always exists the chance of operator error or just some quirk like a shirt tail getting in the holster or holster strap or something.
 
according to the m-1911 field manual printed in 1912, The 1911 sould not be carried in the cocked and locked postition with the saftey on in the holster, because if the pistol is struck from the rear it will disingage the safety. That being said, If the gun is carried in this fashon it should be drawn from the holster in a turning motion, turning the but of the pistol away from the hip as to not disengage the thumb safty while drawing the pistol. It also goes into great detail on how to uncock the hammer on a loaded round, also states that the gun is safe in this possition as to the fireing pin cannot hit the primer of a live cartrige unless struck by the full blow of the hammer. But then is also said the gun should not be carried like this either, but it does tell you how to fire the 1911 from this position.....Go figure, its a Military manual do this, dont do this, if you do do this, if its raining baby zebras on the 4th of July then do this.....

Basically carry it anyway you want, the training manual covers all types of carry and suggests non!!! LOL.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top