Carrying a concealed blackpowder firearm?

[Mn Fats]

I've been googling and finding conflicting answers on this topic. A Blackpowder firearm isn't considered a true firearm, hence the ability to buy one with no license and having it shipped directly to your door with no ffl transfer needed.

So with that, can I carry a concealed BP revolver like I do a pocket knife? It must vary from state to state (I'm in Mn), but if BP's aren't actually considered "firearms" then it should be ok to carry one with no permit right?

 

[Olon]

That's what I would think (and do) but I'm no lawyer. And this is in Nebraska.

 

[.455_Hunter]

In most jurisdictions, once a BP gun is loaded, it is legally no different than a normal cartridge firing weapon.

 

[JohnKSa]

A Blackpowder firearm isn't considered a true firearm, hence the ability to buy one with no license and having it shipped directly to your door with no ffl transfer needed.

You're talking about federal law.

It's not a given that your state's laws will have the same definition of "firearm" as the federal government. You need to know what your state considers a firearm.

It's worth keeping in mind that even if your state doesn't consider a blackpowder pistol to be a firearm, they may still consider it to be a deadly weapon.

You definitely need to do more research before you go ahead with your plan.

Ok, found this:

https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/624.712

I am not a lawyer, but my read of the legal MN definition for pistol would definitely include a blackpowder pistol.

"Pistol" includes a weapon designed to be fired by the use of a single hand and with an overall length less than 26 inches, or having a barrel or barrels of a length less than 18 inches in the case of a shotgun or having a barrel of a length less than 16 inches in the case of a rifle (1) from which may be fired or ejected one or more solid projectiles by means of a cartridge or shell or by the action of an explosive or the igniting of flammable or explosive substances; or (2) for which the propelling force is a spring, elastic band, carbon dioxide, air or other gas, or vapor.​

According to this, you can't legally carry a pistol without a permit.

https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/624.714

 

[Frank Ettin]

I've been googling and finding conflicting answers on this topic. A Blackpowder firearm isn't considered a true firearm, hence the ability to buy one with no license and having it shipped directly to your door with no ffl transfer needed.

So with that, can I carry a concealed BP revolver like I do a pocket knife? It must vary from state to state (I'm in Mn), but if BP's aren't actually considered "firearms" then it should be ok to carry one with no permit right?

Nope.

A blackpowder firearm is generally (but not always) not considered a firearm for the purposes of laws dealing with the shipping and transfer of firearms. That doesn't mean that a blackpowder firearm isn't a firearm for the purposes of laws relating to carrying a loaded firearm in public or dealing generally with the carrying and use of dangerous weapons.

That's what I would think (and do) but I'm no lawyer. And this is in Nebraska.

Nope. See above. And I am a lawyer.

 

[Olon]

Nope.

A blackpowder firearm is generally (but not always) not considered a firearm for the purposes of laws dealing with the shipping and transfer of firearms. That doesn't mean that a blackpowder firearm isn't a firearm for the purposes of laws relating to carrying a loaded firearm in public or dealing generally with the carrying and use of dangerous weapons.



Nope. See above. And I am a lawyer.

Duly noted. Thanks for that.

 

[PapaG]

In Illinois the law says no difference between bp and modern as far as sales, delivery, or use. I think, to be safe, you should act accordingly wherever you are. It is a lot harder proving you are right even if the laws somewhere are fuzzy.

 

[mdauben]

I've been googling and finding conflicting answers on this topic. A Blackpowder firearm isn't considered a true firearm, hence the ability to buy one with no license and having it shipped directly to your door with no ffl transfer needed.

So with that, can I carry a concealed BP revolver like I do a pocket knife? It must vary from state to state (I'm in Mn), but if BP's aren't actually considered "firearms" then it should be ok to carry one with no permit right?

Under federal law, for purposes of sales and transfer, a BP revolver isn't a "firearm" and is not subject to the restrictions a modern cartridge gun is.

For carry, though, its going to come down to state or even local laws and perhaps even LEO interpretation. Certainly, most places have laws against carrying concealed weapons, and while this is most often applied to things like knives, blackjacks, etc. most of them seem to be written loosely enough to apply to a loaded black powder revolver.

You are probably best off talking to a lawyer familiar with local laws.

 

[748]

In some states like Virginia even a bb gun can be considered a firearm.

 

[Jim Watson]

Some places, anything can be considered a "weapon" if carried "for the purpose of going armed."
One wag said, if you are going to carry a baseball bat under your car seat, be sure you have a ball and glove along.

 

[P5 Guy]

Dennis the Mennis couldn't carry his slingshot in NJ, concealed or otherwise.

 

[MachIVshooter]

I've been googling and finding conflicting answers on this topic. A Blackpowder firearm isn't considered a true firearm, hence the ability to buy one with no license and having it shipped directly to your door with no ffl transfer needed.

So with that, can I carry a concealed BP revolver like I do a pocket knife? It must vary from state to state (I'm in Mn), but if BP's aren't actually considered "firearms" then it should be ok to carry one with no permit right?

It does vary from state to state.

The thing to keep in mind is that, while muzzle loaders (technically, original or reproduction guns using "antique ignition") and antiques (made before 1899) are not firearms under federal law insofar as interstate commerce, transfers, record keeping or shipping, they are still considered deadly weapons anywhere, so people who can't possess deadly weapons cannot have antiques or muzzle loaders either, and places where the carrying of weapons is prohibited include carrying of muzzle loaders, antiques, cross bows, swords, large knives, nunchakus, etc.

Most places, even folding knives have length limits beyond which they are considered deadly weapons. Even if state or local law doesn't classify muzzle loaders or antiques as firearms, carrying one concealed is still carrying a concealed weapon.

Consult an attorney in your area for a definitive answer, but I'm quite sure that answer will be that you would still be carrying a deadly weapon requiring a concealed weapon permit/license.

 

[jrmiddleton425]

https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/624.714

2018 Minnesota Statutes
624.714 CARRYING OF WEAPONS WITHOUT PERMIT; PENALTIES.

Subd. 9.Carrying pistols about one's premises or for purposes of repair, target practice.

A permit to carry is not required of a person:

(1) to keep or carry about the person's place of business, dwelling house, premises or on land possessed by the person a pistol;

(2) to carry a pistol from a place of purchase to the person's dwelling house or place of business, or from the person's dwelling house or place of business to or from a place where repairing is done, to have the pistol repaired;

(3) to carry a pistol between the person's dwelling house and place of business;

(4) to carry a pistol in the woods or fields or upon the waters of this state for the purpose of hunting or of target shooting in a safe area; or

(5) to transport a pistol in a motor vehicle, snowmobile or boat if the pistol is unloaded, contained in a closed and fastened case, gunbox, or securely tied package.

That's the current statute on permitless carry, with the link.

Minnesota law seems to come down to an exception for hunting and target shooting, transport to a gunsmith, possession in your dwelling or business premises, or other property controlled by you. Otherwise, if a handgun is loaded, you need a permit to carry it.

 

[SC45-70]

Minnesota has a permit to carry a pistol.
In Minnesota the definition of a pistol is a firearm designed to be fired with one hand.
In Minnesota one of the definitions of a firearm is a weapon designed to expel a projectile with the use of an explosion or burning propellant.
In Minnesota pistols must be unloaded and cased when transported (including muzzle loading pistols) unless you have a carry permit.
SC45-70

 

[labnoti]

My state's law prohibits the concealed carry of "weapons." My state also defines air guns, and black powder guns as firearms for purposes of the statute concerning prohibited persons for example, but the black-powder gun's status as a firearm or otherwise is immaterial to the statutes concerning the concealed carry of weapons because in all cases it most certainly meets the definition of a weapon. Pocket knives are not considered weapons prima facie. If they're used to open a box, they do not have weapon status. If the same knife is used to assault someone then it can readily be considered a weapon, even a deadly one.

Our state's Sheriffs are allowed under the statutes to issue CCW permits (it is a shall issue state too), but the permits are in practically every case for handguns. Concealing an edged weapon requires a permit and a Sheriff could issue a permit to conceal an edged weapon, but I've never heard of it happening. As for what qualifies a knife as a weapon vs. a tool or pocket knife that are legal to conceal it is debatable. So far in the debate (precedents), the distinction has mostly been made around intent. People have been busted, and convictions stuck for concealing a steak knife and a knife disguised as a pen, but mostly because they concealed them with the intent to shank someone with it. This wasn't just supposed but proved out by their motives and actions. Nevertheless, in this state, I would not conceal a large Bowie, a dirk or a long F+S dagger without a permit. The way the statutes are written, it would be too easy to lose.

When I go to California, the way the code is written pretty much any fixed blade cannot be concealed -- not even a paring knife. But if it has a hinge on it, you could probably claim a folder with a 12" blade is a pocket knife.

The 2nd Amendment is to prohibit the infringement on the right to keep and bear arms, not just guns. If the situation with infringements with respect to edged arms is bad, it's patently absurd when it comes to sticks. God help you in this country if you decide to literally walk softly and carry a big stick.

 

[Mn Fats]

Wow, thanks for the time and info guys.

 

[MedWheeler]

Three Florida legal definitions:

(6) “Firearm” means any weapon (including a starter gun) which will, is designed to, or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive; the frame or receiver of any such weapon; any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; any destructive device; or any machine gun. The term “firearm” does not include an antique firearm unless the antique firearm is used in the commission of a crime.

(1) “Antique firearm” means any firearm manufactured in or before 1918 (including any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar early type of ignition system) or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1918, and also any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1918, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

(3)(a) “Concealed weapon” means any dirk, metallic knuckles, billie, tear gas gun, chemical weapon or device, or other deadly weapon carried on or about a person in such a manner as to conceal the weapon from the ordinary sight of another person.

So, while a BP handgun does not meet the definition of a "firearm" unless you commit an act with it that would be a crime if it were a firearm (aggravated assault, robbery, etc), it could, I suppose, be considered an "other deadly weapon" if it were loaded, primed, and carried about in public in a concealed manner.

Florida does not prohibit the open carry of weapons (other than firearms) that are lawful to own, such as fixed-blade knives, chemical SD sprays, and electric "stun-type" SD weapons. I've yet to hear of anyone stretching that to include "antique firearms."

 

[Armored farmer]

Wow, thanks for the time and info guys.

I thought maybe I could pack my Remington '58 to Canada since it was bp.........but Nooooo.

 

[jmorris]

In most jurisdictions, once a BP gun is loaded, it is legally no different than a normal cartridge firing weapon.

There are a lot of places that even throw pneumatic guns in with firearms at least as far as discharging, in the jurisdiction.

 

[Pocket]

State laws do very. TEXAS AND the GCA are a year apart on the definition of the replicas.

ATF does regulate the black powder and caps.
The memo is clear.

https://www.atf.gov/explosives/qa/black-powder-subject-regulation-under-federal-explosives-laws

 

[Elkins45]

Weapon vs firearm.

If I legally owned a grenade or rocket launcher I could carry it concealed in my state because I have a concealed weapon permit, not a concealed gun permit. I do often carry an automatic knife, which would not otherwise be legal.

 

[MedWheeler]

Elkins45 writes:

If I legally owned a grenade or rocket launcher I could carry it concealed in my state because I have a concealed weapon permit, not a concealed gun permit. I do often carry an automatic knife, which would not otherwise be legal.

Florida also issues a "concealed weapon or firearms license." However, the OP is probably asking about whether or not a BP gun could be lawfully carried concealed in the absence of such a permit or license. In addition, anyone prohibited from being in possession of a firearm is not going to be issued such a license or permit.

In looking at your post again, I have to ask, does Kentucky issue a concealed weapon license or permit that does not include firearms? That's something I had never thought of before. Makes me wonder if any state does.

People have to remember that, in many states, a concealed firearm license/permit allows for the lawful carry of only that, a firearm, and not of other types of weapons. Also, having a Florida non-resident license (for example) would not permit concealed carry of a non-firearm-weapon allowed by Florida, but not allowed in the holder's home state or whatever state he or she is in.

 

[BSA1]

Quite possibly the line that LEO's use the most is...

"Tell it to the Judge"...

as they slap the handcuffs on you.

My point being is you are going to have to go through a lot of hassle and expense to prevail in your day in Court that carrying the gun is legal. Remember the arresting officer gets paid to testify.

 

[Pocket]

Carrying the BP UNLOADED does not appear to be an issue if the home state's penal code allow it..

FROM reading the ATF memo once it is loaded, It can only be for Sporting, Recreation or Cultural activity.

Carring the BP loaded, for protection or self defence is not "aporting, recreation or cultural activities .

Even with an LTC or CCP I would get clarity from a source other than the innerweb.

 

[Tommygunn]

Carrying the BP UNLOADED does not appear to be an issue if the home state's penal code allow it..

FROM reading the ATF memo once it is loaded, It can only be for Sporting, Recreation or Cultural activity.

Carring the BP loaded, for protection or self defence is not "aporting, recreation or cultural activities .

Even with an LTC or CCP I would get clarity from a source other than the innerweb.

I believe that most police departments will treat the carrying of a black powder revolver, loaded or not, the same as carrying any other modern firearm. If it's legal, fine, if it's not, you get a room in the gray bar hotel. The big difference, IMHO, will likely be a police officer expressing surprise that someone is carrying a type of gun that was used in the American Civil War.