carrying at your local shop

[divemedic]

Taking the sentiment that "anyone who restricts my right to carry is wrong," do we then allow any visitor to our home the same consideration?

1 My home isn't open to the public
2 I am not using my home to make a living off of a Constitutional right while simultaneously restricting people from it (IOW- Leave your gun outside, but bring me your money.)
3 If you are a visitor in my home, you are there because I am your friend and I trust you. If I don't trust you, then why are you in my home to begin with?

If I don't like an obnoxious message on your tee, open carry, or the cut of your jib, I can refuse service...No one is forcing anyone to do anything in a free society where two people voluntarily chose to engage in business, as it should be.

Not true. If you refuse service to a person, and he alleges that you did so because of his race, he will have the cops come and shut you down. Ask Denny's about how that works.

 

[Cesiumsponge]

The government arbitrarily says certain classes of people are protected and certain kinds of hate is worse than others and worthy of additional punishment. That is a modern encroachment and increase in government powers and has nothing to do with the fundamentals of the Constitution or the spirit of the Constitution. As such, there are many civil libertarians that find such laws unjust and contradictory to the spirit of the Constitution. They violate the 9th and 10th Amendments in the Bill of Rights.

Your fundamental counterargument is "if someone wants to lie about racism, the cops come get you". That isn't even an argument that is based on principles or law. It's an argument based on a person lying to deceive the legal system to punish a business. Therefore it is invalid.

We don't get to impose our will on each other in a voluntary exchange in a free society. A newspaper makes a living off a Constitutional right too. They can tell you to get off their property if you walked in, dressed like a Nazi in goose step. Private property rights are a fundamental bedrock foundation to a free society. They predate firearms, swords, and clubs.

 

[Old Dog]

This bit about making money off a Constitutional right while restricting other from exercising that right is a bit disingenuous. As others have pointed out, property rights hold trump here.

And to those who've posted that they won't go into a gunshop that won't let them open-carry, have you informed the shops' managers why they don't get your business? Have you put the word out among all your associates and acquaintances?

We have a local gun forum up here where we can rate retailers, and this type of policy on the part of an actual gun business hereabouts get widely publicized, and very quickly ...

Personally, I don't get my panties all a-twisted about a gun shop that doesn't want me OCing in it, but I might tend to point out the element of hypocrisy there to the owners/managers. If state law permits OC by law-abiding citizens, I'd like someone in the insurance industry to point out why a gun business would be bound by insurance reasons to prohibit said activity.

 

[TParrish]

This bit about making money off a Constitutional right while restricting other from exercising that right is a bit disingenuous. As others have pointed out, property rights hold trump here.

And to those who've posted that they won't go into a gunshop that won't let them open-carry, have you informed the shops' managers why they don't get your business? Have you put the word out among all your associates and acquaintances?

We have a local gun forum up here where we can rate retailers, and this type of policy on the part of an actual gun business hereabouts get widely publicized, and very quickly ...

Personally, I don't get my panties all a-twisted about a gun shop that doesn't want me OCing in it, but I might tend to point out the element of hypocrisy there to the owners/managers. If state law permits OC by law-abiding citizens, I'd like someone in the insurance industry to point out why a gun business would be bound by insurance reasons to prohibit said activity.

Insurance companies live in their own little world, in which they make their own laws. If a thing your business does has a higher than very low chance of putting them in a position of having to pay a claim, they will attempt to disallow that part of your business in their policy, or will make you pay through the nose to keep it. We are very near the "mobs with torches and pitchforks" point with the insurance companies.

 

[Old Dog]

Yes, I've heard that before, and many hereabouts spout this stuff as though it's gospel, but again, I'd like some sort of documentation from someone in the insurance business, verification that an insurance company would actually stipulate in a business policy that, oh by the way, your customers cannot carry their firearms into your business, even though it is legal.

 

[jrdolall]

Insurance companies live in their own little world, in which they make their own laws. If a thing your business does has a higher than very low chance of putting them in a position of having to pay a claim, they will attempt to disallow that part of your business in their policy, or will make you pay through the nose to keep it.

One of my son's neighbors had to get rid of her trampoline or her insurance premiums were going to go up.
While I dislike businesses that have the no gun policy I also understand the reason for the policy. There are a lot of people out there that I don't want anywhere near me with a loaded firearm and, as stated earlier, gun shops tend to congregate those folks. A business has the right to place whatever restrictions they want(within the law) on their clients and we have the right to NOT spend our money with that business. Tit for Tat as they say.

 

[Sam1911]

The question of insurance requirements comes up every time we have a discussion of a store, institution, or other public-use entity making a policy against guns or the carrying of them.

I may be misremembering, but so far I don't believe I've ever seen a policy posted or credibly quoted that actually had words in it which spoke to the presence or carrying of firearms.

I would very much like to see one, or a link to one, or quotes from one if any of you really do have first-hand access to such a thing.

Calls of "urban legend" tend to be a bit overblown, but so far this is a phenomenon that appears to be more of a convenient boogeyman to blame decisions on than an actual, real, in-text fact.

You'd think with all the millions of institutions out there that have to have insurance, and the hundreds of times I've seen the "[carrying] guns ... against insurance policy" meme come up, SOMEONE would have been able to show us one policy that actually says that.

Anyone?

 

[USAF_Vet]

At my local shops, open or concealed carry is okay. Long guns must be checked at the counter, same with bow cases. That's more because merchandise has been stolen using cases, not because they don't want the guns inside.

 

[BullfrogKen]

so, question is....is this typical?

To speak to the question, not that I've seen.

Living in Maryland it was quite typical to see signs posted dictating how guns needed to be brought into someone's shop. Of course, Maryland being Maryland, what was one to do?

Here in Pennsylvania I've been in and out of a more than a dozen shops over the years. Only one time I ever saw a sign that made me take pause. It stated that all firearms brought into the shop, either for sale or repair, needed to be unloaded and cased. However, it also stated that this didn't apply to concealed firearms carried by individuals with a PA License to Carry. I thought that was a wise policy.


I've seen some really stupid, downright dangerous actions and behavior committed by people with a firearm. Sometimes it was willful; most times it was through ignorance.


I've got no problem with a shop that has such a policy.

However there are some shops I won't step foot into again because of the stupid people who either come in as customers, or work behind the counter. If they had a policy like the one I just mentioned I might return. But as it is, one takes his life into his hands going into it the way they permit people to behave.

 

[taliv]

thanks sam, i was about to post the same thing. i have had insurance policies for both a club and a shooting range and they don't restrict method of carry at all.

if a liability policy for a gun store restricts method of carry, that would be news to me and i'd like to see a copy of it as well.


to the OP, i would not patronize a gun store that didn't respect my rights. generally speaking, i'm a big proponent of the "keep it in the holster" policy. if you're bringing something in to sell or trade or repair, bring it in a case or at the least with action open.

 

[SouthernBoy]

That is very rare in the part of Virginia in which I live and I suspect nearly the entire state. I know of only one gun shop/indoor range that does this in my area. I was just in an indoor range this morning, shooting and a gun shop this afternoon. In both places I OC'd. But then, this is expected here. Open carry is the normal (standard, default) mode of carrying a sidearm in Virginia. Concealing it is the exceptional mode.

 

[TennJed]

> liability issue

"Cost of doing business."

If they choose to prohibit me from lawfully carrying in their store, I'll choose to spend my money somewhere else, as I do with other businesses that don't want my money.

What good would it do anyone if a store closes cause it can't afford the insurance. Doesn't help anyone in the gun community to have our local stores close down

 

[Potatohead]

You know, you dont have to tell people you have a gun. That's where the whole "concealed" thing comes in.

 

[Warp]

My first LGS, back in my home state of IN, absolutely prohibited loaded guns in their store for anybody other than LE. I was quite annoyed by this.

My current LGS simply requires that loaded guns be kept in a holster or case. Which is great.

Given any kind of a choice at all, I would not spend another cent in a gun store that didn't let me open carry a holstered pistol.

 

[TennJed]

The question of insurance requirements comes up every time we have a discussion of a store, institution, or other public-use entity making a policy against guns or the carrying of them.

I may be misremembering, but so far I don't believe I've ever seen a policy posted or credibly quoted that actually had words in it which spoke to the presence or carrying of firearms.

I would very much like to see one, or a link to one, or quotes from one if any of you really do have first-hand access to such a thing.

Calls of "urban legend" tend to be a bit overblown, but so far this is a phenomenon that appears to be more of a convenient boogeyman to blame decisions on than an actual, real, in-text fact.

You'd think with all the millions of institutions out there that have to have insurance, and the hundreds of times I've seen the "[carrying] guns ... against insurance policy" meme come up, SOMEONE would have been able to show us one policy that actually says that.

Anyone?

I sold insurance in a former life (although not commercial).

This is an interesting article on the subject. While it doesn't exactly answer the question directly, it does shed some light. Policies for gun store, gun ranges, and gunsmiths are very black and white. If you want coverage for something you will have to make sure it is added specifically to the policy. It works opposite of the way some people think. It is not that insurance is requiring it, it is that if you want to have your liablity policy to cover customer ND and AD you need it requested and spelled out. That means adding more to the policy and thus increasing the cost.

Basically standard insurance gun stores get will not cover a customer shooting his own gun. If a customer shoots another customer and you are sued you are out of luck. Meaning by letting customers carry you increase your risk finacially as a business owner. If you want coverage for that customer ND or AD you are going to pay a lot more for it. It would be a seperate (and expensive) rider.

So add to the fact, that just by nature you would have more people handling loaded guns, your risk of a customer AD or ND is much greater than other business. Insurance companies will not cover it cheaply. And as a business owner if you allow customers to carry you open yourself up to one accident ruining your business

I can't guarantee that is the way it works, but that is my understanding.

Again this article doesn't directly answer the question, but it is an interesting read on the topic. It talks more about ranges, but some about LGS

http://http://www.insurancejournal.com/news/national/2013/04/11/287978.htm

says the policies are very black and white, and if the exposure is not listed it is not covered so agents need to be thorough when underwriting.
Wilson says increased demand for guns and gun services like gun ranges or classes has led many businesses to expand into other areas they were not in before. But too often they are not updating their insurance coverage appropriately

“The biggest exposures I see right now are a lot of gun shops going into the manufacturing side without knowing what coverages they need,” he says. “For gun ranges offering conceal carry classes there is a professional liability exposure. A lot of gun ranges and shops are not carrying the proper coverage to protect them from a professional liability standpoint.”

HIG has a comprehensive set of guidelines that delves into an insured’s safety and loss control practices used on every account they underwrite.

“It allows us to see what they are doing and how they operate,” Holdren says. “If there is even a remote question of safety or loss issues we don’t take it. We are not a price sensitive product so we only write the best.”

Steve Gulini, vice president of marketing for McNeil, says it can be difficult for these types of facilities to obtain coverage because some insurers exclude businesses that allow firearms on the premises. McNeil’s program works with these businesses and provides waivers that indemnify the lodge owner or the guide if there are guests participating in an at-risk activity.

 

[climbnjump]

One LGS has a sign on the door that says (may not be exact wording - going from memory here):

"Open carry or concealed carry is welcome in our store. We ask that carry weapons remain holstered at all times - unless there is an obvious need otherwise. Should such a need arise, we ask that you aim judiciously."

 

[orionengnr]

I have been going to my local range for long enough that I know most of the guys behind the counter. Every one of them (given the opportunity) has told me that multiple times he has had some yahoo pull a loaded gun from his holster, bag, or step off the range with a "malfunctioning" gun, and point it at the guy behind the counter... Usually with his finger on the trigger.

Some of these guys no longer work there, and honestly, I don't blame them. Two were Marines who saw combat in Afghanistan. One had been shot several times in combat.

Can you blame either one of them for having survived that, and then have to risk (daily) being shot by some idjit across a counter? They both found better jobs, and I miss them both, but I'm happy that they don't have to deal with that day in, day out. Both were far to civil to reach across the counter and smack the crap out of some fool, although I'm sure the temptation was always there.

Although I am a 2A supporter, and I am not happy about the fools who make it necessary, I understand the shop's position...and their liability.

 

[Warp]

I have been going to my local range for long enough that I know most of the guys behind the counter. Every one of them (given the opportunity) has told me that multiple times he has had some yahoo pull a loaded gun from his holster, bag, or step off the range with a "malfunctioning" gun, and point it at the guy behind the counter... Usually with his finger on the trigger.

Some of these guys no longer work there, and honestly, I don't blame them. Two were Marines who saw combat in Afghanistan. One had been shot several times in combat.

Can you blame either one of them for having survived that, and then have to risk (daily) being shot by some idjit across a counter? They both found better jobs, and I miss them both, but I'm happy that they don't have to deal with that day in, day out. Both were far to civil to reach across the counter and smack the crap out of some fool, although I'm sure the temptation was always there.

Although I am a 2A supporter, and I am not happy about the fools who make it necessary, I understand the shop's position...and their liability.

Keep loaded guns in the holster.

And people bringing malfunctioning guns to the counter doesn't have anything to do with this.

 

[Akita1]

Guys - a (very) local perspective to add to the others (not espousing policy of LGS'): I have never (meaning NEVER) entered a LGS or local range in Central FL that does not have a sign on the door that mentions something about prohibiting the bringing in of loaded weapons. I am by no means a lawyer or insurance expert by any measure, but it's enough for me to pull the mag out of my CCW out of sheer respect, even though they know me well and every employee therein shows an open carry loaded weapon (belt, holster, etc.). They make it a point to show (whatever the cause) and allow a bit of slack to those of us who show up frequently and forget (uh-huh). So just respect the rules of the establishment, no? (yes, bring the backlash)

Yes, I realize that's colloquial but isn't that the point? Yes, those of us who are responsible, trained (no that's NOT a Dick Metcalf reference) and have shown our abilities get a bit of deference, but we DESERVE that, don't we (especially for a private business)?

 

[06]

Ole Yellar, you must be talking about Hyatt's out on Wilkerson. They want to check your firearm to insure it is unloaded. Last time I was there they insisted on checking mine as I was on the way out. Told them to just check me out, let me pay, and they would not see me again. May go back but not likely--pricey place anyway. Better places in town to pick up components.

 

[Sam1911]

Jed, thank you for that! Very helpful!

I would at some point love to see an actual rider or policy that is written for a gun shop requesting such a thing -- or hear of a gun shop's results if they bring the matter to their insurance company's attention.

After all, seems like a 50/50 mix or so of those who have a "no loaded weapons" (wink, wink...meaning I've never heard of a shop that would search someone to check) policy and those who have a "Just don't draw it" policy, so it would stand to reason that either this is discussed with some frequency -- or it isn't and a lot of shops are suffering major liability without realizing it.

It could be that some number of that 50% (or so) of shops are paying for a rider to cover one client shooting another. After all, actual injuries from this are VERY rare...even if they do get a lot of attention when they do happen. Or it could be that they are ignoring what might be a business-ending liability.



...

But then as a second thought -- I don't know that I accept that there actually IS a difference between rates of store patrons shooting others in stores with "no carry" policies and in stores without. And I'm not sure that I believe that the insurance industry would look at whatever data they can find and agree that there is an actual reason to charge more if a shop doesn't put up a sign.

After all, the sign isn't legally binding, usually. And there is never any practice in place to physically enforce a NO CARRY policy (metal detectors, etc.). And the phenomenon of store customers shooting folks with ANY gun is extremely rare. So where does the actual increased risk come from? A sign or policy doesn't do almost anything to keep guns out of the store (and possibly increases the number of accidental shots fired in the parking lot ) so I suppose the question would be, can the insurance companies numbers folks come up with a real calculation of increased safety or decreased liability if a store puts up a sign?

 

[BSA1]

I use to manage a indoor shooting range and retail store.

One of the events we had was a team league shooting match during the evening. This meant on those nights the store was packed with large number of shooters coming and going. We had some tables set up in the store for shooters to set their range bags and organize their equipment while waiting for their teams turn to shoot.

We had a rule no loaded guns allowed in the store. Guns could be loaded only on the range.

One evening a shooter put a round threw one of the tables. I imagine we had 40 or so customers in the store at the time. Fortunately the round hit the floor and no injury resulted.

If that round had hit someone we would have been out of business then and there. If fact I would have locked the doors after everyone left, handed the keys to owner and walked away.

The resulting lawsuit(s), negative publicity by the media, political reaction and fallout, dealing with insurance company, public fears about a shooting range near residences would have put us out of business.

Sometime later the bullet proof glass that separated the range and store ended up with a nice spider cracks from a fired round.

I also belong to a private shooting club and witnessed a shooter lose half of hand in a shooting accident. I have also personally witnessed several handgun blow-ups.

My club puts on two large gun shows a year. Yep despite our strict no loaded guns policy, checking weapons at the door, tieing the action open rounds still managed to get fired on a few occasions....with hundreds of customers in the building. One year when had someone manage to shoot themself. Fortunately it was in the parking lot while he claimed he was loading a gun he had purchased in the show.

So if your sense of self-importance is so great that you can not understand or accept that the danger of a n.d. happening to a business where firearms are sold/shot/handled then frankly you are a unsafe gun owner to me and not someone I want around me.

But then again you don't want to be around me away. You see I so elitist that I don't want to get shot leaving my wife a widow and children and hopefully grandchildren.

 

[Akita1]

Roger that Sam. Mine doesn't actually check, they just post (assuming for legal & insurance purposes).

 

[HOOfan_1]

So just respect the rules of the establishment, no?

No one has suggested disrespecting the rules of the establishment. They just suggest that you don't give them your business. Respect people's rights to choose where to and where not to shop, no?

 

[Sam1911]

The resulting lawsuit(s), negative publicity by the media, political reaction and fallout, dealing with insurance company, public fears about a shooting range near residences would have put us out of business.

Not so sure. It's a terrible thing of course, and very uncomfortable to think about. But I'm very familiar with one venue nearby (and know of another) which actually had a negligent discharge AND DEATH. And they're still very much open and thriving. No lawsuits, no even significant discussion of closing the doors.