Carrying in a church service not in a church?

[TyRip]

I live in Ohio, where CCW in church is forbidden unless you have express permission from somebody with authority. I am completing my training this week so I want to know about the legality of carry in my "church."

I attend and work (I mix the audio for the service, just recently changed from volunteer to paid status) at a service that is put on by First Christian employees/pastors at a community center that is on land donated by the church, which is considered part of the church's "campus" but apparently not owned by the church. They have no sign on the community center doors, so is it legal for me to carry there even though Ohio forbids places of worship, or is it like a "school function" and is considered the same thing, still a place of worship no matter what building it is in (home, school, community center, church)?

Here is some info from the community center's website about ownership/etc. if anyone is interested:

http://edgewoodcommunitycenter.com/6



So, what do you think, would it be legal for me to carry while attending/working at this service?


Thanks for your thoughts

 

[Lupinus]

Simple answer, consult a lawyer familiar with Ohio firearms law and/or the office within your state that issues permits or the attorney generals office.

Opinion from the anonymous internet guy, I would say if it's a church service regardless if they own the property it for legal purposes is a church.

I do have to ask though, what is the problem with just going with the requirement and getting permission.

 

[TyRip]

Thanks for the reply, and you are definitely correct in that consulting a lawyer would be the best course of action.

I wasn't saying that I don't want to ask, I was saying that I don't want to ask if I don't have to. If it were legal, why would I give them the option to deny me the opportunity to carry by asking and bringing it up for discussion? I would simply carry and no one would notice, it would be a non-issue.

 

[jrfoxx]

I'd be willing to bet the AG/ a judge would say that any building that is having a religious service becomes a "church" in the intent of the law, for at leats the duration the service is going on.I got nothing to back that up at all, but that's what I'd likely see happening. interesting quiestion.I'd love to see some case law on that one. Seems like I have heard of courts deciding certain place "transform/become" something particular based on the activity withing, but cant think of what it was regarding.....


Oh, I think I remember.It was in Washington, or here in Portland (or maybe Virginia) where a private company was putting on a fair, or fireworks display os some type of celebration on city property, and the city was trying to say that the public, city property transformed to private property for the duration of the event, and thus the private company could leagally ban guns, when state law said cities had no right to ban guns on public property. I think it WAS in Portland here, and it involved some type of city celebration in a park. I'll have to check the OFF website, as I think they were involved in the beef....

 

[Prince Yamato]

I live in Ohio, where CCW in church is forbidden unless you have express permission from somebody with authority

Does God count as an authority?

If the Lord can tell your pastor what to say/do, maybe he'll tell you that CCW in his house is OK... just a thought...

 

[TyRip]

Hey, now that is some good thinking right there!

Seriously, I like that equally for the slyness as well as the spiritual foundation of it all. If God doesn't lead the church (his people) then who does (and why would we want to be involved in that case)?

It would take quite the judge to agree on that one, but hey there are still some solid Christians out there...

 

[Henry Bowman]

Is there any "worshiping" going on? Then it's a "place of worship." Most any judge would find that to be within the spirit of the law, if not the letter.

However, the decision is yours. As always, you compare the likelihood of your concealed firearm being discovered (other than in a defensive use under threat of great bodily harm or death) and who would be most likely to make the discovery (LEO or other member or pastor) verses the likely consequences of the discovery. Then compare the consequences with the likelihood and severity of the risk of being caught not carrying when you really needed to.



I am a lawyer, but not your lawyer. This is not legal advice.

 

[Zundfolge]

I live in Ohio, where CCW in church is forbidden unless you have express permission from somebody with authority.

I still find it insane that children can't pray in public schools because of "separation of church and state" ... yet the state has the right to set policies at all the churches.

So how does Ohio law word the "permission from somebody with authority" bit? Could the pastor simply make it church policy that anyone licensed to carry is allowed to? Or does it have to be individual written permission signed in blood or something?

 

[Tribal]

I would say if it's a church service regardless if they own the property it for legal purposes is a church.

Is there any "worshiping" going on? Then it's a "place of worship."

I'm thinking the issue is possession rather than ownership. If the place where you are is under the congregation's rightful control and they're holding a service, it probably counts. The alternatives in my mind are firstly a place not possessed by the congregation where they simply start worshiping (e.g. a service held in the common area of a park where you could otherwise legally carry) and secondly a place the congregation possesses but where no service is going on at the moment.

I would think that if it says you need express permission, that not only means that a congregational authority must have said that it's okay but must have specifically told you that it's okay for you to carry. At least, I suspect that's the legally safer interpretation.

However, IANAL.

Perhaps you could take someone in a position of authority shooting with you over the weekend? While you're there ever-so-casually ask if it would be okay for you to carry concealed while at church.

 

[Kentak]

I suspect that the AG would be conservative in his opinion and say that you need the pastor's permission. The wording in the law is as follows, regarding places the permit does not authorize carrying:

(6) Any church, synagogue, mosque, or other place of worship, unless the church, synagogue, mosque, or other place of worship posts or permits otherwise;

Are you avoiding asking because you believe you would be denied?

K

 

[TyRip]

I was asking about the legalities because I don't want to have the option to be denied if it is already legal.

That said, it really seems like it wouldn't be legal, and I understand the reasoning. I honestly have no idea whether I would be denied or not, but I have a suspicion that my chances are not all that great.

 

[lvcat2004]

I'm just curious as to who this person of "authority" is. Since this is a legal matter, are we talking about a judge in the county, city, state, or perhaps a sheriff? or are we talking about the pastor of the church that owns this property??

As it's the Ohio law from what you're saying, even if the pastor said it's ok, would it make it illegal if the pastor is not considered "authority" in this issue??