Case Cleaning

[grsjax]

Big Cheese
Good point. I usually only neck size and haven't noticed a problem but I don't shoot thousands of rounds a year and most of my cases have only been reloaded a few times. I may just not have a large enough sample to observe any effects. Something to keep in mind.

One question. Is it exposure to ammonia while being stressed or ammonia exposure on a previously stressed sample that is the problem?

 

[243winxb]

how i see it from internet searchs

The 15% Acetic acid in vinegar depletes the 5% zinc in brass. The brass will have pink or peach colored spots. When the zinc is removed, brass becomes weak and brittle. The reaction of the acetic acid will continue to corrode the brass. Brass will turn dark in color. This corrsion must be stopped. It has been suggested that Baking Soda when mixed with water at a rate of 1 grain Baking Soda per ounce of water will neutralize the acid, when the brass is agitated in it. My conclusion is that vinegar should not be uses as a cleaning agent on brass.

Acetic acid is corrosive to metals including iron, magnesium, and zinc, forming hydrogen gas and metal salts called acetates. Vinegar is typically 5% to 18% acetic acid. Solutions at more than 25% acetic acid are handled in a fume hood because of the pungent, corrosive vapour. Dilute acetic acid, in the form of vinegar, is harmless to humans for the most part. However, ingestion of stronger solutions is dangerous to human and animal life. It can cause severe damage to the digestive system, and a potentially lethal change in the acidity of the blood.Due to incompatibilities, it is recommended to keep acetic acid away from chromic acid, ethylene glycol, nitric acid, perchloric acid, permanganates, peroxides and hydroxyls.

 

[243winxb]

grsjax, the strength of the vinegar solution would make a difference as you said. Dezincafication may only apply to certain blends of brass when the level of zinc is higher than 15%. But i dont know for sure???

 

[243winxb]

BigCheese, everything i read is saying Ammonia and brass should not come in contact with each other as you said. ty for the info. It would seem that vinegar can cause stress corrosion of brass also.

 

[BigCheese]

grsjax

Stress corrosion cracking occurs under the simultaneous conditions of tensile stress and the corroding medium. When you cold work the brass by neck expanding or belling, a residual stress remains in the brass. Also, when the case is fired, the diameter expands to fill the chamber and this causes tensile stress due to stretching.

243winxb;

I haven't run across acetic acid (vinegar) causing stress corrosion cracking. That does not rule out general corrosion (leaching) by vinegar. Stress corrosion cracking of brass occurs most commonly in moist ammonia. Mercury is also very bad; that's why old corrosive primed brass may crack.

 

[snuffy]

This is exactly the purpose of forums like this, the sharing of information. Here we have a chemist AND a metallurgist getting to the bottom of a subject that has always been a topic of contention in the reloading community.

I stay away from ANY kind of liquid case cleaners because I tried some iosso cleaner ONE time. I didn't make sure the cases were dry first, had a bunch of fail to fire in .357. Besides the long time period involved to let them air dry or having to commit a cookie sheet to ONLY casing drying to be put in an oven. Then there's the possibility of getting the brass too hot. Having a mother that was tighter than 3 coats of paint didn't help, she'd scream about the power bill if I turned on the oven to dry brass! I built a tumbler using a coffee can, that worked much better, and was quicker. Now I use a vibratory tumbler.

 

[grsjax]

Very interesting discussion. I was unaware of the retained stress issue in resized brass. Goes to show you are never to old to learn something new. As for the effect of ascetic acid on brass a lot depends on how much zinc is there. Usually if the zinc component is less than 15% there is little if any dezincification but it would depend on how long the brass was in contact with the acid. Would be very interesting to soak some cases in white vinegar and weigh the cases every hour or so to see how much weight was being lost. Might do that some day if I can find the time.

 

[243winxb]

composition of rifle brass and bullet jackets

I wonder if the alloy is about the same between different manufactures

The yellow brass (copper alloy 260)
contains approximately 70% copper and 30% zinc. It is used
in the production of all types of cartridge cases and primer
components. The red brass (copper alloy 220), which
contains 90% copper and 10% zinc, is used mainly to
manufacture small-calibre projectile jackets.

http://www.snctec.com/imports/pdf/en/fiche_technique151.pdf Link to the info on General Dynamics website. http://www.gd-otscanada.com/html/en/products/ammunition-small.php Seems the above info is correct.

The cartridge case, bullet, bullet coating, and metal jacket also contain specific elements that can be detected. Virtually all cartridge cases are made of brass (70% copper and 30% zinc). A few have a nickel coating. Primer cases are of similar composition (Cu-Zn). Bullet cores are most often lead and antimony, with a very few having a ferrous alloy core. Bullet jackets are usually brass (90% copper with 10% zinc), but some are a ferrous alloy and some are aluminum. Some bullet coatings may also contain nickel. (Ravreby, 1982).

link to info here> http://library.med.utah.edu/WebPath/TUTORIAL/GUNS/GUNGSR.html

 

[ar10]

Not again. :banghead:

 

[snuffy]

Not again.:banghead:

HUH?What you mean "not again?"

 

[ar10]

HUH?What you mean "not again?"

The subject seems to never end, popping up every couple of months in just about every case cleaning thread.
response " I use Brasso"
response "Brasso has ammonia, you'll screw up your cases"
response "I've been using it for 20yrs with no problem. Works great"
From there the threads seem to go from detailed high science and advanced chemistry to hogwash and it's never resolved.
No one is going to change anybody's mind and everyone has a certain point of view from DON'T DO IT to YES YOU CAN

 

[bullseye308]

No one is going to change anybody's mind and everyone has a certain point of view from DON'T DO IT to YES YOU CAN

Every time this comes up we seem to be getting closer to the real science of the matter and an honest scientific answer. It looks like we are on the verge of resolving this due to having the "right man for the job", a chemist and a metallurgist. Maybe we can get to the bottom of this myth generator and put it to bed this time. Sit back, take a deap breath, chill and let this play out. Maybe we will get something difinitive, maybe we won't, but we're closer.

 

[The Bushmaster]

I solved the problem a LONG time ago. Like maybe 22 years ago. I just don't clean my brass with an ammonia based cleaning substance or a cleaning substance containing ammonia...

Problem solved...Here anyway...

 

[ar10]

I solved the problem a LONG time ago. Like maybe 22 years ago. I just don't clean my brass with an ammonia based cleaning substance or a cleaning substance containing ammonia...

Problem solved...Here anyway...

How true. And 25 yrs ago I was a virgin welding engineer, I was smart as hell back then, knew everything. Problem is, as I got older I got dumber.

 

[crashcarruthers]

I guess i will put my thoughts in on the matter of Brasso or not. Fact ammonia products are used to clean copper out of gun barrels, because ammonia dissolves copper. You can argue all day about concentration levels, temperature, pressure,reaction rate, etc., but at the end of the day there are known brass safe products that clean brass very good that are as cost effect as Brasso. I can not see the point of taking a none needed chance, when there are safe and cheap options. You can use gasoline to light charcoal or you can use charcoal lighter fluid, both work and both cost about the same, everybody has a choice.

 

[grsjax]

Just to throw another idea into the mix. Maybe cleaning the brass isn't necessary. I believe it was Richard Lee that did some tests and found that the only advantage to cleaning the brass was shiny brass. That probably doesn't apply to people looking for the highest level of accuracy but for the majority of shooters it may well be true.

 

[rondog]

In my experience, the Iosso stuff doesn't remove all the crud all that well from deprimed cases. It WILL remove very heavy tarnishing, but it leaves the brass pinkish.

 

[ar10]

Just to throw another idea into the mix. Maybe cleaning the brass isn't necessary. I believe it was Richard Lee that did some tests and found that the only advantage to cleaning the brass was shiny brass. That probably doesn't apply to people looking for the highest level of accuracy but for the majority of shooters it may well be true.

Richard is wrong. Everyone knows shiny brass is much more accurate than dirty brass.

 

[Clark]

Quote:
HUH?What you mean "not again?"
The subject seems to never end, popping up every couple of months in just about every case cleaning thread.
response " I use Brasso"
response "Brasso has ammonia, you'll screw up your cases"
response "I've been using it for 20yrs with no problem. Works great"
From there the threads seem to go from detailed high science and advanced chemistry to hogwash and it's never resolved.
No one is going to change anybody's mind and everyone has a certain point of view from DON'T DO IT to YES YOU CAN

I was actually getting something out of THIS thread.
But in the last 15 years, I have seen enough of "Can I shoot 38 sp in my 357?" and "9mm vs 45acp".

Carl Sagan. "Cosmos" 1980

A great moment in television history was featured in Carl Sagan's outstanding thirteen-part series on astronomy called "Cosmos". He was pictured in New York library surrounded by millions of books. He pointed to a tiny section and said:

"It is only possible in one person's lifetime to read this many books."

He then turned to the camera and made the following profound statement:

"The trick is to read the right books."

Many forums have an ignore feature.
You need an ignore feature in your head.
I have read thousands of books, simply by reading parts of the table of contents and the introduction, skimming a few pages and putting the book down.

I look at hundreds of forum titles every day and pass on almost all of them.

Lately, I have seen some real fanaticism over case cleaning.
That is a good thing.

 

[243winxb]

Acid Test

Using LC and Federal brass and 5 different acids. Sit for 1 hr. The NRA mix and ammonia were the most aggressive. Plain vinegar, lemon, apple made the brass shine also. NRA & vinegar & ammonia started getting green spots after a few hours. Brass was not rinsed in water or baking soda to stop the chemical reaction/corrosion. Some of the brass lost 1/10 gr in weight, dirt washing out of it i think. The ammonia liquid turned very dark almost black. Safer to use birchwood casey liquid brass cleaner, corn cob media, or some other commercial product thats safe.

 

[243winxb]

Acid Test Photos Close up View

I think i am done with liquid cleans, at least homemade ones.

 

[ar10]

Lately, I have seen some real fanaticism over case cleaning.
That is a good thing.

Actually I think some of it is hilarious. I think of it as a "moo point" (much different than "moot point"). It's like discussing advanced case cleaning theory with a cow.
If someone thinks his/her procedure works for them and then someone else says "don't do it", then followed up with all the science known about subject. It's a "moo point".

 

[243winxb]

The Idea is to Save a Few Buck$ for most People

If you can make your own home brew and save a $ or 2, thats what reloading is all about. In fact i know of one person that now has his own bore cleaner for sale and is doing quit well with his "home brew";.

Maybe cleaning the brass isn't necessary. I believe it was Richard Lee that did some tests and found that the only advantage to cleaning the brass was shiny brass. That probably doesn't apply to people looking for the highest level of accuracy but for the majority of shooters it may well be true.

grsjax, For small lots of brass, i clean them by putting them in a towel and rolling them around, or hand wiping 20 at a time. For large amounts,the NRA recipe has worked well for many years, till i let brass soak overnight by mistake.

 

[snuffy]

Actually I think some of it is hilarious. I think of it as a "moo point" (much different than "moot point"). It's like discussing advanced case cleaning theory with a cow.
If someone thinks his/her procedure works for them and then someone else says "don't do it", then followed up with all the science known about subject. It's a "moo point".

So you would rather not know the facts, just go blindly on with your method. Even though it may weaken your brass?

Like I said before, that's what forums like this are for. To discuss things, to educate people. We had a chemist, and a metallurgist get together to find out what really happens. For the first time I really know what has been standard operating practice for many years to be correct. Ammonia and acid is harmful to brass. PERIOD! Don't believe it, do what you want to anyway, it's still a free country, or at least it is until king hussien gets sworn in!

 

[grsjax]

RE: Acid Test
Interesting that the Federal did not seem to lose any weight while the LC seemed to lose a consistent .1gr. A point to ponder is that .1gr is less than the variation in weight you are likely to see in brass cases.