CCH At A License Check

[Bonesinium]

So if you are in a duty to inform state, and do so, what is the legality of the officer taking and clearing your weapon if you simply refuse when he asks? If you have no violated any laws, and state that you do not consent to any searches, can he still legally take your firearm?

If I were stopped and ID checked for no reason, I would never step out of my vehicle or willing allow to be searched without first asking if I am being detained, and then saying that I don't consent to any searches. I have no qualms with police officers, but if they are going to violate my rights after I have made it clear I have no wish for them to be violated, I would certainly be interested in pursing legal action against them.

However in this case, you willing allowed him to take your firearm, and considering you are now filing a complaint, it was obviously against your better interest.

Are there specific laws requiring you to not only inform, but to also tell them where the firearm is, where you bought it, how you acquired it, etc? If not, I would not answer any questions about it beside the required "I am carrying a firearm, sir/ma'am". Period. It seems clear no good comes from doing more then that. Maybe the cop will think better the next time he feels the need to disarm someone and muzzle sweep their kid.

Look at it this way. He is carrying. You are carrying. Both are doing so legally. Do you think he would let you check his firearm and clear it? Hell no! So why should he to you? Just food for thought...

 

[rellascout]

Unless you are required by law to disclose that you have a pistol, (some states do) it is better to keep your mouth shut. If the cop asked to see your driver’s license and that is all you are legally obligated to do, this sort of thing can been avoided.

In VA you are not required to inform but once they are in posession of your lic they will know you have a permit. The first question out of their mouth will be are you armed and is there a gun in the car or on your person.

I have been pulled over when I was not carrying and therefore did not say anything but that was the first thing that the officer asked me once she returned with my lic after running it.

 

[Zach S]

Why would a lawful gun owner advocate that?

I didn't. I just think a duty to inform is stupid - and I always did so, and only because it was required by law. Out of over 195,553 valid permits in NC, just over 1007 have been revoked... Right around half a percent. (source)

I don't feel comfortable with an officer "figuring out" how to clear my sidearm, asking me if its registered, why its cocked, why I have two spare mags, lecturing my on gun safety, etc. Do a search, you'll find plenty of stories of lawful citizens being harassed when a verbal or written warning, or simple ticket would have sufficed.

Duty to inform also applies if you're unarmed in NC. I rolled through a license check and didn't have any firearms in the vehicle. When they ran my licence (I wasn't local) and I was flagged as a CHP holder, I sat on the side of the road and watched my car get searched while being uncooperative with answers to their questions such as "Why do you have a permit?" "How many guns do you own?" "Do you own any assault rifles?" "Are your guns registered?"

If I get stopped for a traffic violation, that traffic violation should be the focus of the stop. Not my Kimber or why I carry it. Traffic checks are to check for seatbelts, drunks, unlicensed drivers, unregistered cars, etc. If I go through a checkpoint, I don't smell like alcohol, my three year old and myself are properly strapped in, and the car is legal, I should be on my way...

Due to duty to inform, Mike wasn't.

 

[hardluk1]

I don't get all the worry about drive check points. I will glad set thru one. gets some of the rif-raf of the roads if only for a few days . I don't do anything wrong so i have nothing to fear. And it ain't oly nc that does that. I also will tell a leo that I carry just they they don't get all work up when it comes up on the computer in there car. Last thing I want is some inexperienced getting a superprize and then me getting a pistol pointed at me. I have bee a 2 driver checks in nc and the troppers only wanted to see a licence and did not care to check my the pistol at all. Handed back my paper work and on my way. Got caught in a check point a rural FL and told the deputy I had my carry gun as I handed him my paper work and he asked what I carried and asked to see it. Did not touch. I just held it flat in my hand to see it. Handed back my papers and said have a nice stay and away we went. I do worry about the young officers but had desided some years back if a young'n ever said something about do i have the skills. I would say that with 48 years of growing up with firearms and 26 years of carry'n yes I think I have more skill than most leos.

Remember in NC you have to tell the officer first. If I carry will show up on the cumputer if they check you out. Beside who wants some excited inexperienced leo jumping out of his car gun in hand to come up and check yours. Even the florida deputy said it showed on his check of me.

 

[hermannr]

Everything this officer did was totally illegal. Licence Checks are illegal as per the 4th Ammendment of the constitution. Removal of your firearm when there is no RAS is theft, this guy needs a lesson in teh Laws of the US and the Various states.

While I know this was not in NC, but there is an incidence in the 9th district where the judge (Justice Black) removed the LEO's immunity. The LEO will be charged with theft of a firearm, which in WA is a Class B Felony...many years in prison and no more job as a LEO.

 

[rellascout]

Everything this officer did was totally illegal. Licence Checks are illegal as per the 4th Ammendment of the constitution.

You might want to double check that....

 

[LawScholar]

So much drama in other states! In WY I could have an AR-15 laying across the backseat and no one would bat an eyelash. God bless states that support gun rights.

I have a family full of cops and I am an avid cop supporter, but my dad (a 23-year Highway Patrol veteran) is the first to express disgust at the anti-gun elitism and paramilitary attitude of an unfortunate number of modern officers. Asking if you were "trained enough" was very insulting. Even with a family full of cops I am recognized as the family gun expert. Good cops don't assume they know more than you automatically.

 

[dirtykid]

Wow ! Im speechless just, wow ! I didnt know some states REQUIRE you to inform officer of weapon present, the 1-time I was pulled over i didnt offer any information than what was needed for him to complete his investigation,(i didnt have my seat-belt on)
The officer ran my DL and returned to car noting that i hadn't any moving-violations for many years,told me to buckle up and drive safely. next time i could be ticketed for such violation, (little did i know they RECORD warnings now in the computer) so about 5-weeks later ,got stopped for same thing (DUH ! sometimes i dont learn) and sure enough he says :you just got warned for this about a month ago so i got to choose: a speeding ticket or a seatbelt ticket (seatbelt violation is seen as a equipment violation basically)
So i choose the seatbelt ticket ($110) and chalked it up to my ignorance or arrogance whatever fits best.. However making you get out of car and put hands on trunk ?? thats demeaning and would cause public-embarassment,, It's just not right !!

 

[ForumSurfer]

So much drama in other states! In WY I could have an AR-15 laying across the backseat and no one would bat an eyelash. God bless states that support gun rights.

I was all loaded up to go spend a day shooting with a long time friend I hadn't seen in a long time. He said he would buy all the ammo if I would supply some fun firearms. So I loaded up to go check out his new stretch of land. I went through a checkpoint along the way. I had 6 pistols, 6 shotguns, an ar15 (and 1/2, 2 uppers) and a few rifles. I was expecting to get questioned since I had it all in the back seat of my suv.

"Mornin, son." (At this point I'm thinking he's an old school guy that has been around. He'll either want to come along or detain me all morning because he isn't a gun person.)

"Hi officer, I have a CHP and I'm carrying a weapon on me [awkward pause as I debate on whether I'm legally obliged to tell him about the arsenal not concealed on my person] and all those [sheepishly points over shoulder]."

"Damn, goin shootin?"

"Yes, sir."

"Have a good one..."

Completely opposite experience from the OP, which is exactly why he should file a formal complaint against the arrogant, overbearing and uninformed officer that detained him.

 

[V1ROT8]

Sad but true. You do have your rights until you choose to say goodbye to them.

 

[9mm+]

So much drama in other states! In WY I could have an AR-15 laying across the backseat and no one would bat an eyelash. God bless states that support gun rights.

I sooooooooo want to move to WY!

I still think a lot of the trouble the OP described was due to the fact that he was in Orange County. For those who aren't familiar with North Carolina, it is the location of Chapel Hill and Carrboro, the former of which is one of the most liberal areas of NC. It's not quite "Berkeley South", but relatively speaking, it leans left. Lots of anti's in that part of the state. Of course, that is no excuse for why the officer acted the way he did, but it does shed some more light on this. I would file a complaint and get this resolved ASAP.

 

[ForumSurfer]

For those who aren't familiar with North Carolina, it is the location of Chapel Hill and Carrboro, the former of which is one of the most liberal areas of NC. It's not quite "Berkeley South", but relatively speaking, it leans left. Lots of anti's in that part of the state.

Amen...the only place in the state that would be worse is The People's Republic of Cary.

 

[henschman]

License checkpoints may be constitutional according to the Supreme Court as long as they are conducted for a regulatory rather than a criminal enforcement purpose (checking to see that the person is properly licensed in this case). However, the authority for the search/seizure only extends to briefly detaining the driver and checking his license. To engage in a further search, it would need to be either pursuant to consent, to a warrant, or to one of the warrant exceptions established by Supreme Court precedent. In a motor vehicle, an officer can search any time he has probable cause that a specific crime is being committed, and the search may extend anywhere he has probable cause of there being evidence of the crime. However, in this case, the officer had no probable cause of any kind of crime being committed.

That leaves the "stop and frisk" line of cases under Terry v. OH. Under this line of cases, an officer must have reasonable suspicion, based on specific and articulable facts, that a suspect is both armed and dangerous. If he so believes, he can pat down the person, search the interior compartment of a motor vehicle that he is in or was recently in, and remove and secure any weapons he finds.

However, like I said, this type of search requires reasonable suspicion that the suspect is both ARMED, and DANGEROUS. I will give the cop the "armed" part, since you freely told him you have a gun -- but what specific and articulable facts led him to believe that the OP was any more dangerous than the average joe at the checkpoint? As I said before, the cop had absolutely no reason to believe that the OP is violating any law whatsoever.

Unfortunately, this is something that seems to be standard procedure for police departments all over the country -- many times when a cop comes in contact with a firearm, even if he has absolutely no reason to believe it is possessed illegally, he will secure it without the consent of the owner. I believe it to be a clear violation of Supreme Court precedent.

OP, you might want to talk to a lawyer who handles tort claims to discuss the possibility of recovering damages in a 1983 suit.

The only way this widespread abuse will end is if officers, departments, and municipalities are held accountable financially.

 

[9mm+]

Amen...the only place in the state that would be worse is The People's Republic of Cary.

I hear ya, Forum...Cary is where I live and it's killing me every day.

 

[Frogomatik]

I was all loaded up to go spend a day shooting with a long time friend I hadn't seen in a long time. He said he would buy all the ammo if I would supply some fun firearms. So I loaded up to go check out his new stretch of land. I went through a checkpoint along the way. I had 6 pistols, 6 shotguns, an ar15 (and 1/2, 2 uppers) and a few rifles. I was expecting to get questioned since I had it all in the back seat of my suv.

"Mornin, son." (At this point I'm thinking he's an old school guy that has been around. He'll either want to come along or detain me all morning because he isn't a gun person.)

"Hi officer, I have a CHP and I'm carrying a weapon on me [awkward pause as I debate on whether I'm legally obliged to tell him about the arsenal not concealed on my person] and all those [sheepishly points over shoulder]."

"Damn, goin shootin?"

"Yes, sir."

"Have a good one..."

Completely opposite experience from the OP, which is exactly why he should file a formal complaint against the arrogant, overbearing and uninformed officer that detained him.

had a similar experience when I lived in CO. On my way back from a day off shooting up in Conifer. I was armed, had 3 long guns up front, and a dozen or more in the bed. Older officer pulled me over for speeding(of which I was most certainly guilty). He, of course, saw all the guns when he came up to my window, I told him I was armed...as if it wasn't obvious. He asked me to disarm(he didn't disarm me, just asked me to set the pistol on the seat) and exit the vehicle while he ran my license...no problem. He came back, gave me a verbal warning, then asked me if that was an 870 between the seats, I said yes, and we ended up just shooting the breeze for about 30 minutes before he got another call. Real nice guy, ran into him again at the range and got to shoot a bit of trap with him.

 

[Bonesinium]

Everything this officer did was totally illegal. Licence Checks are illegal as per the 4th Ammendment of the constitution.

You might want to double check that....

Removal of your firearm when there is no RAS is theft, this guy needs a lesson in teh Laws of the US and the Various states.

And you also might want to check teh Laws...

Sad but true. You do have your rights until you choose to say goodbye to them.

Fact.

 

[Deanimator]

I don't do anything wrong so i have nothing to fear.

Other than having an arrogant, untrained imbecile sweep you or your family member with a loaded firearm.

 

[Deanimator]

Just one more reason to carry and use a recording device wherever lawful to do so.

 

[Dean1818]

I was pulled over at night here in my beloved state of Texas


As he was walking up I put my hands on the wheel at 2 and 10

I gave him the DL and CCL.

I was polite and professional.

He didnt even ask about the gun and handed the CCL back, like it wasnt
worth discussing.

(I was a bit suprised, I thought he would ask where the gun is)

He gave me a warning



I will add that when I lived in Ohio many years ago (No CCL) I was pulled over by a trooper and I knew what he was looking for..... I had the new sticker to put on my license that had expired sitting in a pile of papers in the front passenger seat.

As he walked up I started to dig through the papers to find the stickers.

I happened to glance in my side mirror and he had cleared leather on his pistol

It woke me up a bit...... he obviously thought I was going for a gun.

I put my hands out the window and he was a more relaxed.

I dont blame him for that.... there are some nut jobs out there that they have to deal with.

He gave me a warning

All in all... I give ALL cops the benefit of the doubt.

I dont view them as my enemy

I belive that we dont HAVE to be confrontaional.

In Texas, A cop knows that I carry on his system when he pulls me over.

Unless he does something REALLY stupid, I will absolutely be flexible with him / her.

My experience has almost always been positive. These guys generally are just trying to work a shift and get home to their family.

The OP should write a compaint, as this may be a learning experiene for the cop.

But I have to say....I really am not looking for a conflict when those all to often times when I get myself pulled over occurs.

 

[MikeNice]

I sent a copy of the complaint to the proper person in the department. I also sent a copy to the officer's liutenant and sarge as encouraged by the officer in charge of handling complaints like this. (The guy knew who I was talking about just by my description of the event.)

I recieved a call from the department this morning. The officer's liutenant called to let me know he is requesting an investigation. I told him I had sent the letter to the appropriate person to get it started. He said he would comply fully. He found the "allegations" to be "disturbing and unsuitable for an officer."

We'll see what happens. It won't lead to termination but any discipline would be comforting to me.

 

[ForumSurfer]

He found the "allegations" to be "disturbing and unsuitable for an officer."

See! You dealt with a bad apple. But if someone doesn't call him on it, he will continue to act like that toward the rest of us. Good job on filing the complaint. I hope it works out well for all of us here in NC. Keep us posted.

 

[geekWithA.45]

For starters, your treatment was unconscionable.

And for seconds:

License check?

"Papiere, Bitte."

The premise that claims that this is consistent with 4A is a load of manure.

 

[SimplyChad]

I've been pulled over twice as it comes to my Chl. Both times in El paso Texas. The first time officer was completely professional asked me to set my revolver on the dash of the truck and went on with the ticket (speeding). Second time I really got pisses off. Cop comes to the window asked for my license and insurence. I gave it up with my chl. He asked what I was carring I told him I wasnt. He didnt believe me. He asked me out of the truck I did so. Frisked me asked me again where the gun was I told him I didn't have it. He called in a friend they cuffed me sat me on the curb and proceeded to tear apart my truck until a supervisor showed up. He uncuffed me gave me back my stuff. Helped me put my tools back in my toolbox along with some other stuff they pulled out of the bed. Then proceeded to apologize profusely while giving me the paperwork to file a formal complaint. To make all the worse I was in uniform on the way home from work. The next day I was called into my first Sgt office to ask what I had done I had never been so angery and embarrassed.

 

[HOOfan_1]

My brother was a cop and then a Marine. He could drive up and down I95 without fear of getting a ticket. If he was pulled over he simply showed his credentials and they would let him go. Special rules for special people.

I work for my state Government, we have a parking deck under my building for visitors, it is free of charge, but it is meant for people who use our building. A Capital Police officer ticketed a woman for parking there for free but not using our building. She was a state legislator's wife. The officer nearly got fired and the enforcement of the parking policy is no longer followed.

Another state employee was fired about a month before that for parking in the deck.

is exactly right.

 

[heeler]

It certainly seems to me the officer over reacted giving the supplied information.
I really hate hearing things like this.

On another note I was stopped last month for actually going 69 mph in a 65 zone and in Texas you must present the officer your drivers license as well as Concealed handgun license if you are carrying.
The officer came back and gave me a warning only and thanked me for showing my CHL even though I would have been in trouble had I not done so.
I was never asked where it was or even if I had it on me.
In all honesty I think my CHL might have actually gotten me out of a ticket that day.
I am sure far west Texas is a lot more different than the long distance difference from Texas to N.C. though.
In Texas an officer has the right to take your weapon from you in a traffic stop if he/she feels like it and you must comply.
It will be given back to you after they are ready to release you.
I hope this never happens to me but it is quite possible.