CCW, "Duty to Inform," and refusing a search

[Deanimator]

Presentation of what? A CCW license? Yes.

In Ohio, it's presentation ON REQUEST.

You don't have to give the cop your CHL unless he asks for it, and merely giving it to him isn't actually notification.

 

[Gamera]

In SC it's presentation upon the officer identifying himself as an officer, and/or asking for any form of identification.
I'm not quite sure what happens after this (I've never been pulled over while carrying). I suppose the officer could say "please give me your weapon", but I'm not sure if we legally must give it to him.

 

[luigi]

If I give consent to a search I've given away any legal protection I have. I don't know the cop that's searching my car, I don't know if he's crooked, or trying to enhance his reputation by planting drugs in people's cars. So the smartest thing I can do is ask to speak to my lawyer and let her sort it out?

 

[Shadow 7D]

And remember that police searches are like rape its ok until you explicitly say NO, if the cop say can I do a search and you don't stop him, the the DA will argue that you allowed the search and gave away all constitutional protection, were if you say no, and make sure that it gets on camera, or the search for "safety" reason, your lawyer can argue that it was a bad search and get the case thrown out.

Me personally, I don't want to waste the time or have my stuff messed with.

 

[luigi]

I think telling the cop you're armed is asking for trouble. If I don't have to say anything I don't.

How did the fish get hooked? He opened his mouth.

 

[divemedic]

As a result, I won't ever disclose that I am carrying unless required to do so by law.

I agree. I live in the Orlando area. I used to tell cops that I carry. A Sergeant with the Orange County Sheriff's office changed all of that, back in 2000. I was sitting at a stop light for a pretty long period of time, and after about 10 minutes assumed it must be broken. There was no traffic, so I went.

The deputy came up behind me and pulled me over. I still do not know where he came from, I never saw him until he was on my bumper. He asked me to step out of the car, so I did. I handed him my DL, registration, CCW permit, and Insurance. When he saw the CCW, he asked if I had a weapon. I told him yes.

He stepped back, put his hand on his pistol, and told me, "Make one move and I will kill you where you stand." Then he said, "Go ahead, try me. I bet I am faster."

I asked him what his problem was, and he began cursing me out, calling me names, and was a real jerk. Bragging about his 20 years on the force, etc.

I do not tell anymore, and yes I do have things to hide. I don't want people to know what my medical history is, nor do I want people to know details of the sex life between my wife and me, nor do I want anyone to have access to my financial information, like credit card numbers, etc. It is personal and private. No searches for you, unless you have a warrant or are arresting me. Just because I have something to hide does not mean that the "something" that I am hiding is illegal.

 

[SFB]

divemedic - wow, i know exactly where you are coming from. i lived in orlando until i was 24 years old and i think that is why i have such distrust for most LEO. orlando police and orange county sheriff's take the cake when it comes to being unprofessional.

i once got pulled over after passing someone on 2 lane road in a no passing zone. they were reading a map and driving 20mph in a 50mph zone. there was no other cars around and i safely passed them. an orange county sheriff coming the other direction whipped a u-turn in the road, passed the same car i passed, and looked to be going 80mph to catch up to me. i immediately pulled over when i saw him do a u-turn and put his lights on. when he approached the car i had my 2 year old 75lb boxer in the truck with me. he approached the vehicle in such an unprofessional way. he started yelling at me as soon as he got to my truck and freaked my dog out. my dog started barking and growling at him, i told her to stop and lay down, which she did. the officer however placed his hand on his gun and said "you better get that dog under control or i'm going to shoot it, and you just better hope you aren't in the way when i do."

that is not the kind of officer i want to tell i have a weapon in my vehicle.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Since we've wandered a lit bit off topic, I'll wander too. I've had two speeding stops since I have been carrying. I live in a no requirement to inform state. First encounter, 11:30PM, coming back from a casino. My gun was in the glovebox because I had been to the casino. I pull over and immediately get the folder containing my registration and insurance out of the glovebox and close the glovebox. Stop (and ticket) goes completely normal after that. I did not disclose the gun in the glovebox because I had no need any more to open the glovebox after I retrieved the paperwork before the cop came up to the car.

Second stop, I was wearing my gun in my holster. Stop goes by normal, I never mentioned the gun. Never presented my CPL. Then the cop asks me to step out of the vehicle! (He wanted to give me a verbal warning in private, not in front of my kids for some reason). So I stepped out, open carrying like I always do. He glanced at the gun but said nothing at all about it. Maybe because he knew I was an officer in the Navy from my ID.

So far I am 2 for 2 for not informing and I will continue to not inform, just my personal opinion for me.

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

If you have a duty to inform, by all means do so. The officer may even take possession of your weapon. But in no way, shape or form is having a CHL or a lawfully carried weapon probable cause for a search.

 

[delta53]

Depends were you drive

I have been pulled over about 10 times in thirty years and my car was seached about 4 times with consent and about 5 without. They always say probaly cause, the police were I live are nazis and do what they want.

 

[brboyer]

You may not lie to a police officer - it's called "giving false information" and in many jurisdictions it is a crime. There are some exceptions to this and the Supreme Court has even created one of these ludicrous exceptions.

You might try saying, "I appreciate the job that you are doing for us, but I don't feel the need to answer that question or see how it can help you to do your job unless you can articulate any probable cause that you may have. Caution: The police are allowed to lie to you - with a few exceptions.

The only one that has some ability to make you answer a question is a judge and that would be under the threat of a contempt citation and in most cases only after you have been given immunity. You can still refuse, but you might wind up staying in the calaboose for a long, long time.




If you buy a one-way ticket with cash at Palm Beach International Airport and you don't have any baggage, I promise you that you will be detained. I'm not saying that it's right, but it is going to happen!



It might be a good thing to remember what one of our members once said in a post, "The police are employed to gather information against anyone they come in contact with."

In Florida? Not true. Please provide a cite to the statute that someone could be charged under for saying "Nope" to the question "Do you have any guns in the car?" during a stop for a traffic violation.

It is perfectly legal to lie about a lawfully carried weapon.

 

[Shadow 7D]

In Alaska you have to inform:

(a) A person commits the crime of misconduct involving weapons in the fifth degree if the person

(1) is 21 years of age or older and knowingly possesses a deadly weapon, other than an ordinary pocket knife or a defensive weapon,

(A) that is concealed on the person, and, when contacted by a peace officer, the person fails to

(i) immediately inform the peace officer of that possession; or

(ii) allow the peace officer to secure the deadly weapon, or fails to secure the weapon at the direction of the peace officer, during the duration of the contact;

(B) that is concealed on the person within the residence of another person unless the person has first obtained the express permission of an adult residing there to bring a concealed deadly weapon within the residence;

So, not informing is not an option, however on the other hand, you don't have to get licensed to carry concealed.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

It is perfectly legal to lie about a lawfully carried weapon.

at least put ianal if you are gonna help set folk up for an obstruction charge

 

[HorseSoldier]

+1 -- in Alaska you have a duty to inform, and it just doesn't really seem to land us in the middle of a police state where all personal liberties are eradicated.

Of course up here even in what passes for the big city, I'd tend to be skeptical of anyone who said they weren't armed, since we've got higher rates of gun ownership than anywhere else in the country if I'm not mistaken.

 

[Shadow 7D]

Horse soldier, naw, we own more guns per a person , and probably more people own guns too..

 

[sig220mw]

When I first got my permit, it was in Ft Worth, Texas where I then lived. Granted Texas is a much more gun friendly state than many others The instructor was a Ft Worth police officer and in Texas you must tell an officer if you are carrying. The instructor told us "that in his opinion" he felt far more at ease with a holder of a concealed carry permit because when he saw that permit he knew that in all likelyhood the permit holder would not be a threat or a criminal since he had been through a thorough back ground check.
He in fact told us to present the permit even when not carrying for this very reason and also because when they run your license the fact that you have a permit is also part of the info that comes up on your license info and when that happens he will then want to know why you didn't inform him. I have been stopped a few times sometimes carrying sometimes not and in each case was never even asked to show the weapon. In the last two cases I got out of the vehicle and apologized for having my head up my rear and not paying attention to the speed limit. In both of these stops the officer talked to me a few minutes in a friendly manner and told me to carry on and have a good day without writing me a ticket.

 

[chuckusaret]

If they ask if I am armed I tell them, if not I don't disclose that I am armed. I have only been asked to step out of the car one time at a DUI checkpoint and as I exited the car I hit the door lock button. The officers did not ask if I was armed but did ask if they could "just look" in the trunk, my reply was, am I being charged. The officer handed me my DL and said have a nice evening. I was carrying and I also had a weapon in the car safe under the drivers seat.

 

[nyresq]

Just a little common sense for those with the "Nazi cops and renegade florida officers" in their areas. I would say if they are that bad, do you think they would shoot you five minutes into a car stop for having a gun if they are made aware of it from the start? Or are they more likely to shoot you after you didn't tell them and you happen to lean foward to get your license you accidently dropped on the floor when he sees your gun and thinks your reaching for it?

I believe in my own privacy and dont have anything to hide, nor do I think everyone should consent to searches, but as a law enforcement officer who has made car stops, I have always felt better knowing upfront that the person I pulled over has a gun. I ask where it is, and tell them not to reach for it, or unholster it if its on their person. If I had someone pulled over for five minutes and then see a gun in close proximity to them, it is always going to turn it up three notches, when if they had simply said so when stopped, it is not an issue.
I have never asked to see or handle anyones gun when stopped, and I think it increases the chances of an AD for someone to mess with it while in a car anyway.
But from a LEO perspective, I would rather know upfront then find out 5 minutes into a stop.

And dont lie, because anything said during any police interaction whether you are under arrest or not is admissable in court. Making false statements will come back to haunt you and in many jurisdictions is enough for an arrest, which then opens up the field for a search if you are still in your car which is what you were trying to avoid in the first place.

 

[brboyer]

It is perfectly legal to lie about a lawfully carried weapon.

at least put ianal if you are gonna help set folk up for an obstruction charge

Not too familiar with Florida statutes are you?

 

[luigi]

Not too familiar with Florida statutes are you?

Could you cite the relevant statute please? Most states do require that you surrender your permit upon request of an Officer.

 

[brboyer]

Could you cite the relevant statute please? Most states do require that you surrender your permit upon request of an Officer.

My responses were in reference to lying to a LEO about the lawful possession of a firearm during a stop for a traffic offense.

I was not making a statements regarding display of a CWFL to a LEO when requested, which is required by 790.06(1).

But the officer would need to know you were carrying under the provision of the license before he could ask about the license.

What I was saying was, someone can lawfully (and I have a few times) say "Nope" to the "Do you have any weapons in the car?" question.

 

[luigi]

My responses were in reference to lying to a LEO about the lawful possession of a firearm during a stop for a traffic offense.

And my response was to very clearly ask you to cite a relevant statute. I would appreciate it if you could do so

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

"crickets"

 

[brboyer]

And my response was to very clearly ask you to cite a relevant statute. I would appreciate it if you could do so

Actually,
You asked:

Could you cite the relevant statute please? Most states do require that you surrender your permit upon request of an Officer.

Which had nothing to do with my posts, but I obliged you anyway:

I was not making a statements regarding display of a CWFL to a LEO when requested, which is required by 790.06(1).

Now, if you're asking for a cite to prove it's OK to lie to a LEO about a lawfully possessed firearm during a stop for a traffic violation, it does not exist. Law's tell us we cannot do something, not that we can do something.

Some people like to point to one of the following statutes to support their position, but it's obvious to anyone that none of these apply:

837.05 False reports to law enforcement authorities.--

(1) Except as provided in subsection (2), whoever knowingly gives false information to any law enforcement officer concerning the alleged commission of any crime, commits a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.

(2) Whoever knowingly gives false information to a law enforcement officer concerning the alleged commission of a capital felony, commits a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

837.055 False information to law enforcement during investigation.--

Whoever knowingly and willfully gives false information to a law enforcement officer who is conducting a missing person investigation or a felony criminal investigation with the intent to mislead the officer or impede the investigation commits a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.

843.02 Resisting officer without violence to his or her person.—

Whoever shall resist, obstruct, or oppose any officer as defined in s. 943.10(1), (2), (3), (6), (7), (8), or (9); member of the Parole Commission or any administrative aide or supervisor employed by the commission; county probation officer; parole and probation supervisor; personnel or representative of the Department of Law Enforcement; or other person legally authorized to execute process in the execution of legal process or in the lawful execution of any legal duty, without offering or doing violence to the person of the officer, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

bolding is mine ianal

843.02 Resisting officer without violence to his or her person.—

Whoever shall resist, obstruct, or oppose any officer as defined in s. 943.10(1), (2), (3), (6), (7), (8), or (9); member of the Parole Commission or any administrative aide or supervisor employed by the commission; county probation officer; parole and probation supervisor; personnel or representative of the Department of Law Enforcement; or other person legally authorized to execute process in the execution of legal process or in the lawful execution of any legal duty, without offering or doing violence to the person of the officer, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.