Ccw/self defense ammuntion ??? For ccw instructors & police

Status
Not open for further replies.
X

xr1200

Member
Joined
Nov 12, 2010
Messages
638
It seems there is a BIG debate here on what type of ammunition is recommended by qualified CCW instructors for CCW carry and personal defense.

I recently moved to another state where I had to take a new CCW class and the NRA CCW instructor told us specifcally that you are not to use FMJ, TARGET, HUNTING OR HANDLOADS ETC. for personal defense or CCW use.

Doing so would open you up to criminal and civil lawsuits , when your type of ammunition is brought into question during a shooting.

Our CCW instructor told us to use only hollow point amuntion that has been clearly designed and marketed by the manufacturer for police use and personal defense, and that would be even better to carry the exact same caliber and ammunition that your local PD or State Police issue.

So it would be nice to hear from some CCW instructors and Police as to what they have been recommended to carry for personal defense on and off duty.
 
Well, it makes perfect sense to purchase tried, true, and vigorously tested ammunition. Hydrashock, Golden Saber, Gold Dot, and others of the sort have been tested, evaluated, and investigated all over the world by all sorts of various agencies and entities. For the life of me, I can't imagine how carrying fmj's, wadcutters, hunting ammo, or lead ball could open anyone up to more than the usual post-shooting scrutinization. The only thing I would recommend against would be the use of reloads and gimmicky gee-whiz off the wall stuff. Some do it, and I've never heard of the practice to come back to haunt anyone- but why take the chance? Me? I prefer Remington Golden Saber in which ever firearm I choose to carry.

Now, I don't know what state you now reside in, and they may very well have some kind of say in the matter- but it's just hard for me to picture. The thing about instructors (no matter what kind or subject matter) is there is usually very little to keep them from inputting a little of their own opinions here and there. If he/she says it- ask to see it in writing. If it's the law of the land, then surely someone has had the insight to write it in the books somewhere. Does your state not provide basic literature concerning state law as it pertains to CCW? They (or the instructor) should at the very least guide students to sinks and/or sites which contain detailed state statutes and criminal/traffic laws.
 
Civil attorney and DA arguement would go like this.

Reloads or handloads - you are made out to be a mad scientist playing experimenting to kill or severely injure ppl. , reloads are you a legal insured bussiness to manufacture ammunition.

Hunting or target loads, are meant to hunt animals, now you are hunting ppl. , Target loads, some are very high velocity and design for long range shooting and should not be used in populated areas.

FMJ - even though it is acceptable military round approved according to the Geneva Convention and the HAG, the fmj was designed for the military use in war and often over penentrates. So again an individual using FMJ is portrayed as waging war on the shooting victim and endangering innocent bystanders to over penentrating or stray bullets.

I don't agree with these arguements or statements, but this is what the CCW instructors will tell you the prosecuting DA's and civil attorneys will bring up in court against you.
 
Last edited:
Use the same ammo police do, and you're a cop wannabe. FMJ means you're playing soldier. Expanding ammo of any type - you're using Dum Dums, banned by the Geneva Convention. (It's actually the Hague Accords, but most juries never heard of them.) Handloads are super deadly. And so forth and so on.

Granted that a prosecutor can indict a ham sandwich, in MOST jurisdictions the ammo doesn't matter at all in the case of a "good" shooting. If a prosecutor decides to make ammo a factor, he's out to get you no matter what. And if you have a good lawyer, and prepare him for an assault against your ammo type, he should be able to turn the argument to your advantage.

Personally, I think any of the premium defense ammo from the Big 4 ammo companies (Winchester, Remington, Federal, Speer) will do just fine . . . prior quality issues argue against any of the "boutique" brands, in my opinion.
 
You won't be made out to be a wanabe cop as long as you use ammo that is marketed for police and self defense. If it is legal for a cop to use that ammunition then it is legal for a private citizen to use the same ammo , such as remington golden saber, marketed for police and self defense.

Most police service ammo has already passed legal requiremnts in a court of law during justified cop shootings, this sets legal presidence, that will actually help you in your defense.

I wouldn't use ammo mark or boxed LEO only or SWAT type ammo.
 
HUM...

If its a good shoot (justifiable) the round shouldn't matter. In fact, gun, ball bat, or kitchen skillet would be ok.

Bad shoot... nothing you can chamber will make it good.

Most police service ammo has already passed legal requiremnts in a court of law during justified cop shootings, this sets legal presidence, that will actually help you in your defense.
Click to expand...

And you forgot low bid. I've seen what state vendors offer and its a pretty wide range. Same with authorized calibers. Everything from a .32 ACP to 44 Special. Right now the .40 has a big following, but the .357 Sig, 9mm and .45 are also hanging in there.

I would be more concerned with it being a legal action over what was used.
 
Last edited:
XR, PLEASE BACK YOUR POST

cause the guys I know, buy the best quality (and marketing) that they can afford

I wouldn't use ammo mark or boxed LEO only or SWAT type ammo
Click to expand...
actually you shouldn't, first those are not for sale to the 'public' and most police suppliers, or at least the ones I shop at, don't have them out, you have to go into the 'showroom' to even see that inventory.
 
Last edited:
Hey, according to XR
I guess glocks would be
legal for a private citizen to use the same
AND
You won't be made out to be a wanabe cop as long as you use _____ that is marketed for police

Sorry dude, not buying, they get what they can afford,
Like I could afford those $100 glocks that Gaston sold to get GLOCK's to be so ubiquitous.
 
As long as the shooting is justfied, ammo isn't really much of a concern in a criminal trial, as long as its not a state like new jersey, that has a ban on hollow point ammo.

The point you really have to worry about is the civil trial, which is almost always going to happen, as long as there is a surviving relative or family member that will attempt to milk you for money and the fact is most civil lawyers are going to charge you over $5000 deposit , just to start a defense in a civil trial and the legal cost can even go well over $100k.

The only way a civil trial can be avoided is if your state has a castle doctrine or the person you shoot, has a lengthy rap sheet. But shoot the neighbors unruley 16 yr. old kid who's only armed with a baseball bat and started to rob homes or a shooting involving an arguement etc. Your almost guaranteed to go to a civil trial.
 
Well, my shotgun ammo is commercial so no problem there. California actually has a decent castle doctrine (forcible entry into an occupied dwelling....blah, blah). As far as handgun ammo, my handgun is not my first choice for HD and I haven't bought a round of commercial ammo in 15 years, and I won't buy a box of ammo just to have around to kill someone (that would be another potential avenue of attack by a prosecuter-"So sir, with hundreds of rounds of ammo in your house why did you feel you needed to buy THAT ONE BOX OF SPECIAL LETHAL AMMO DESIGNED JUST FOR KILLING PEOPLE? Wasn't the other .357 magnum ammo you had DEADLY ENOUGH FOR YOU?") and will use what I have and do the best I can.

As far as CCW, being in California I haven't made a huge contribution to the local sheriff's reelection campaign so I am not "of good character" and am not a movie star with political clout so I do not have "good cause". But I could see one major hurdle to jump for the defense would be when the prosecutor says (remember this is California): "You will hear the defendant's counsel telling all sorts stories about how he was an innocent victim, when IN FACT he chooses to walk around the streets WITH A GUN STRAPPED on his body like a modern day cowboy with fantasies about the O.K. Coral running through his head, HOPING and PRAYING for someone to GIVE HIM AN EXCUSE, JUST ONE REASON to get involved in a gunfight and KILL someone to satisfy his homicidal CRAVING for BLOOD!!!!!"

In reality court will be a series of arguments, some valid and some not, concerning every bit of dirt that can be dredged up to smear the character of anyone on the opposing side and invalidate their testimony. The fact that you even own a gun, that you are a member of a shooting club, that you own more than one, that you talk about them, that you are a member of an online forum, the time of day, where you were, who you hang out with, your tattoos, your manner of dress, EVERYTHING will be spun to support their argument instead of yours. Ammo is just one factor, and a small one at that. Of some concern, buy way too much is paid to it, sometimes to the exclusion of attention to other more important factors.
 
An attorney will use whatever claim they can lodge. The concern is that the average citizen often lacks knowledge and discretion in what they choose to use. Suggesting up front to a class of usually undereducated gun users on what ammo to use or avoid helps keep them in a better position should a worst case scenario actually take place.

It's not a matter of whether the Ultimate Death Slayer Explodapoints will work, it's more a caution they can be more marketing than cost effective. Unfortunately, despite the calendar age of most buyers, they still respond to juvenile and downright offensive advertising. Put skulls on a crowbar, they line up to buy it. What's with that?

If someone is simply discussing some common sense choices in ammo selection, what better time than an CCW class?
 
If we stick to old proven stuff like Federal 'Classic' JHPs perhaps they will stop making plastic tipped +P GUCCI-mo nonsense that costs $50 or more per 50 and make us something everyone can afford to use.
 
and now the family is suing him in a civil trial.
Click to expand...
I don't see that in the article, but even if true, that's ONE ... you're claiming "almost always going to happen".

And you're basing all this off of one guy who happened to be teaching a class you happened to be sitting in, not case law, not statistics, and not experience.
Again, when making a fantastic claim like "The point you really have to worry about is the civil trial, which is almost always going to happen" you need actual evidence, not your memory of the blathering of one person in a class in a state you're not telling us about.

So, again, [citation needed]
 
That article doesn't say squat about a civil suit after a grand jury clearing of all charges, I think you're making this stuff up as you go.
And even if that poor guy DID get taken to civil court and cleaned out for every penny he had and will ever have in the future, you STILL refuse to support "almost always going to happen"!

I submit that you are JSUT AS LIKELY to need to debunk a trumped-up outrage over "deadly cop-killer armor-piercing explodinating illegal HOLLOW POINTS" as you are to be taken to court solely based on using FMJ.
Full disclosure, I only use FMJ in mouseguns where penetration and reliability has to be sacrificed for expansion, I'll take penetration and reliability given that choice, and what I really do is carry guns that feed Gold Dots or other premium JHP/BJHP ammo in calibers like 9x19 or .45acp almost all the time, but I do keep hardball on hand for guns in .32acp and 9x18Mak, I haven't decided on Mak yet, HP ammo runs and seems to explode water jugs nicely, but I just don't carry the CZ82, so I haven't seriously tested it yet.
 
Doing so would open you up to criminal and civil lawsuits
Click to expand...

That has been internet lore twenty minutes after the system started. I wouldn't suggest FMJ RN for most SD uses but not for legal reasons. Nor would I suggest reloads for the vast majority solely for reliability reasons. Beyond that, any reputable manufacturer's ammo would be suitable. I don't buy the "best ammo" theory. there's just too many variables.
 
bigfatdave said:
I submit that you are JSUT AS LIKELY to need to debunk a trumped-up outrage over "deadly cop-killer armor-piercing explodinating illegal HOLLOW POINTS" as you are to be taken to court solely based on using FMJ.
Click to expand...

Ok... shoe on other foot now......

He never said "taken to court solely based on using FMJ".

Now you're the one exagerating... about him exagerating....


I think his point is that you could be involved in a civil suit even though you have been cleared from a criminal stand point.

Anyone that is NOT in an argumentitive state of mind wouldnt need a citation.


bigfatdave said:
I think you're making this stuff up as you go.
Click to expand...

At least is isnt insinuating that you said something that you didnt :rolleyes:
 
FMJ, TARGET, HUNTING OR HANDLOADS ETC. for personal defense or CCW use.

Doing so would open you up to criminal and civil lawsuits , when your type of ammunition is brought into question during a shooting.

If the type of ammunition you use in a SD shooting is questioned that means there is speculation regarding the justification of your shooting in a criminal case. If someone is shot they are shot no matter what ammo you use. The type of ammo used is only incidental. If its a good shoot its a good shoot. If a prosecutor is getting into what kind of ammo you used in a criminal case, his case seems weak to me. The totality of teh circumstances will determine if there are criminal or civil proceedings against you and the type of ammo is not going to make the case.

However, it is not hard to justify use of just about any type of regular ammo in a crimianl or civil trial as long as your attorney is prepared for it. For example:

FMJ- used by the military as required by the Hague Convention to minimize wound damage.

Target- target ammo for handguns is lower velocity than standard ammo. Here you would be using "lower velocity ammo designed to be used to punch a hole through paper". Doesn't sound like you were trying to do the most damage possible.

Hunting- to me that means a heavy bullet in 357 or 44 mag and that's just a poor choice for SD use unless you are in bear country. If you're talking about carrying a 454 Casull or 500 S&W that's way overkill (no matter what ammo you have in it) for CCW.

Reloads- not a good idea not for the "super killer bullets" but for forensics. If you say the BG was 3 feet away from you with the baseball bat and his friends say he was 30 feet away the CSI folks can duplicate the gunshot residue with factory loads. If you are using your reloads the only way to get what load you were using is for you to testify. You do not want to take the stand for any reason if you're the defendant in a criminal trial. How to solve the problem? Buy a box of factory ammo every year for carry.

I was a LEO for over 30 years and worked in 12 states. I have been a firearms instructor for nearly 35 years. The only time I've ever heard ammo type brought up in a criminal case was in NJ where hollowpoints are used as an add on charge in any firearms violation.
 
Use whatever ammo you want. In the unlikely event that you actually shoot someone AND (even more unlikely) your attorney wants you to testify in your own defense, when you are asked "Why did you choose such-and-such ammunition?", tell them the truth:

"This is what the guy (or gal) at the gun store told me I should use."
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

B
  • Locked
Choosing carry ammo based on what police carry?
2
Replies
33
Views
2K
El Tejon
E
K
  • Locked
Does your state restrict the type of CCW handgun you carry?
2
Replies
37
Views
1K
shield20
S
A
  • Locked
thoughts on this? ccw instruction.
Replies
13
Views
800
Axis II
A
P
  • Locked
How do you become a CCW instructor?
Replies
9
Views
1K
Trebor
T
S
  • Locked
CCW concerns relating to ammo
2 3
Replies
57
Views
3K
mustang_steve
M
Back
Top