CCW stop

[Fred Fuller]

Folks,

On a quick count, I see as many as ten different jurisdictions represented here on this thread so far.

Let's be careful with the street-lawyer stuff when so many disparate sets of laws are involved with possible contact with LEOs, please.

You need to know if your state has a duty to inform LE if you are carrying concealed. If so, and you are, you need to comply. You need to know what your responsibilities and rights are in your jurisdiction or in any jurisdiction you are traveling in or through, and act accordingly.

Still, if compliance is demanded by a LEO, just or not, legal or not, there is no percentage in going crossways with said LEO on the scene. This is a Problem One scenario, and you need to get past Problem One in order to go on towards a resolution of Problem Two, if you want it to go that way. Making a ruckus at Problem One will only damage your case when it comes to Problem Two.

If you are that worried about what might happen to you when you are out and about, there are relatively inexpensive video systems available these days, and you can install one in your car and/or on your person. And if this is the case, you should probably have a good attorney on call as well.

 

[BLB68]

When it gets to the "guns drawn" part, that's a good time to cooperate. Complain about it later, but be on your best behavior while in contact with any LEOs with weapons drawn on you.

Most folks -- including LEOs -- are reasonable, but there are oh so many things that can go wrong when someone's pointing a loaded weapon at you. It is not the time to argue about their procedure. Or to do anything but answer their questions as briefly and accurately as possible. You want to be cooperative and put the guys with the guns at ease, and that is not done with excessive chattiness or argumentativeness, which are both tools that criminals use to put people off guard. Don't add to the chaos. If there's a complaint, file it the next day.

 

[Deltaboy1984]

I always get out and lock my car when I asked to leave the vehicle. I have only been stopped 4 times in the past 20 years. And only once have I been asked to get out. I was taught to lock up by a Cop in the Family when I was a teenager. OP did right since the LEO'S were amped up and had guns drawn. But OP should have locked his car and shut the door.

 

[j1]

It is easy for us to be tough. We were
not there. I do not want to be a wise guy with my local police.

 

[JustinJ]

No real probable cause. I would have said no your not searching my car. No your not taking my gun and clearing it or doing anything with it without a warrant. If you do I want my lawyer immediately.

I would strongly suggest you adjust the wording. Instead of "you're not searching my car", which sounds an awful like resistance, one should say "I do not consent to this search".

 

[besafe2]

Op:
This is also my first post here. As a former leo you did what you should've done. The police were conducting an investigation & had every right to do what they did.

 

[Davek1977]

The police were conducting an investigation & had every right to do what they did.

Thats an overly broad statement that could have different implications based on jurisdictional issues. Very rarely are things black and white, aside from penguins and zebras, anyway...simply "conducting an investigation" isn't reason enough to compromise anyone's legal rights. If the case should go to court, the officer had BETTER have more sound reasoning than "Well...I was conducting an investigation into a possible crime, therefore whatever I did incident to that investigation is allowed under the law.....right judge?"

 

[beatledog7]

I agree that when LEO guns are drawn compliance is the immediate right answer. But later, when cool heads return, it's time to dig into what happened and, if the LEOS were wrong, make it known.

I'm not a LEO, an attorney, nor a judge, but the whole concept of "we got a report of shots fired and this vehicle is departing from where that supposedly happened" is very weak cause for suspicion in my mind. There's no reason to believe the OP fired those shots, but if they never find another person with a gun, will they presume he did fire them just because he had the means to fire shots and they have no better answer?

 

[Mike Sr.]

Let's see they gave a description of the car leaving...the OP's....if the info was that accurate: make, model, color...maybe it was possible to provide a plate #.

Just wondering about the accuracy of the description. When I was a kid I could tell the make and model of every car ...it was just a kid pear-pressure to know these things, with just a glance I could tell which year between 55, 56, and 57 Chevy's, and the Edsels.....and Nash Ramblers...and Thuderbirds and Vette's....etc..

But not today...no way could I be so car specific! Just not possible unless I was close enough to read the emblems on car, if I was than close then plate nmber's would be recognizable!

IF the plate nmbers were recognizable...did the LEO's run a plate check...?

????

 

[coolluke01]

I think you did very well. Comply and get it over with. If you have nothing to hide you should have very little to fear.

I teach Permit to Carry classes and I tell my students just what Fred said at the top.

Making a ruckus at Problem One will only damage your case when it comes to Problem Two.

Live to fight another day, Don't solve the injustice at that time! There is a time and a place for reporting and correcting wrong behavior.

Consider this: if the officers lied to get you to stop, what makes you think they won't lie when you resist their demands and take a stand based on what you think is a violation of grey area rights? The injustice needs to be corrected! but not when it's happening!

All things considered they appear to be within their rights and nothing that they could have found would have been fruit of the poisonous tree. It would be reasonable to suspect that a person admitting to having a gun could have another one. They also have the right to disarm you for officer safety depending on the circumstances.

I will say that if at any time my cooperation is met with violence or harmful force, I would respond in kind. I do have my line and we all need to figure out where that is. But for the most part we need to comply and understand where the officer is coming from. After all they get shot at! I'm gonna cut them a little slack.

 

[besafe2]

Let's see they gave a description of the car leaving...the OP's....if the info was that accurate: make, model, color...maybe it was possible to provide a plate #.

Just wondering about the accuracy of the description. When I was a kid I could tell the make and model of every car ...it was just a kid pear-pressure to know these things, with just a glance I could tell which year between 55, 56, and 57 Chevy's, and the Edsels.....and Nash Ramblers...and Thuderbirds and Vette's....etc..

But not today...no way could I be so car specific! Just not possible unless I was close enough to read the emblems on car, if I was than close then plate nmber's would be recognizable!

IF the plate nmbers were recognizable...did the LEO's run a plate check...?

????

I'm with you there/ When I was a leo quite a few years ago I knew them all & the colors. Now no way on either .

 

[BBQJOE]

I have been the guy being searched unwarranted before.
Most times without probable cause. It's real easy to say what a person should do given this or that, but when it's your kiester on the line things tend to happen quickly and aren't as manageable as one would like to think.

Not escalating the situation I believe is always the best choice.

 

[jrdolall]

Kudos to all the people with the cajones to look at two officers with drawn guns and tell them to pound sand.
This has never happened to me. I have never been asked to exit the vehicle when stopped. I have never been asked if they could do a search. Heck I haven't gotten a ticket since the early 90s and I drive all over the country in rental cars at all times of night and day. IF I am ever asked to exit the vehicle I will do so. If they ask for permission to search then I will allow them to do so. I don't drink or do anything illegal so I am not overly worried about them finding any contraband in my car. If they happen to find a bag of something in a rental car then I will be in trouble.

99.9997% of the time the LEO is just doing his job and trying to get home safely. He isn't interested in framing me any more than I am interested in costing him his job.

 

[Shadow 7D]

Kudos to all the people with the cajones to look at two officers with drawn guns and tell them to pound sand.

99.9997% of the time the LEO is just doing his job and trying to get home safely. He isn't interested in framing me any more than I am interested in costing him his job.

So, you are OK with cops acting like Jack Boot Thugs
trampling over your civil rights?
They just want to go home at the end of the day...

They have the RULE OF LAW, they are not above the law, no matter what they may think. When we start cowing to them, we have already lost. Them finding something, in an illegal search, well it sure would have saved you time and money to just say no... why cause then your lawyer can get the whole case tossed on illegal search (costs the state money too) or better, they never gots nothing to begin with.

Yeah, why is it I'm hearing a bunch of 'don't bother with your rights'
Cops don't get the benefit of the doubt, they do it by the book, do you really want to live in the police state where cops can do anything?

 

[Fred Fuller]

Yeah, why is it I'm hearing a bunch of 'don't bother with your rights'

You aren't.

You're hearing that it's not wise to knock heads with already agitated LEOs in the heat of the moment over issues that can be dealt with when cooler heads prevail.

 

[jrdolall]

Once again, if you have the guts to stare down 2 officers that have their guns drawn then by all means go for it. Maybe you should pull out your own sidearm and challenge them. Maybe tell them to put their guns away and you will consider cooperating. Maybe you don't mind being cuffed over the trunk of your car while they determine if you are dangerous.

Or you can calmly do what they tell you, get back in your car, and drive away. If you feel that a law was broken or that your rights were infringed then lawyer up and nail them.

I am in no way advocating that we roll over and allow it to become a police state. You seem to be saying that all cops are Jackboot Thugs when in reality they are not. I AM saying that people need to use common sense in a tense situation and common sense dictates that you do all you can to diffuse the situation be that situation in your driveway or along a county road in rural Kansas. Leave the legal issues to the legal experts and, if you are a legal expert then by all means give the cop your card. I know a bit about the law and one thing I do know is that the man pointing a gun at me is in control and I would just as soon not provoke him needlessly. YOU can do what you want but it seems the OP did the right thing and is now trying to figure out if he needs to pursue things. I can't answer that and probably only a lawyer in his area can give him the proper advice.

 

[Shadow 7D]

Yeah, why is it I'm hearing a bunch of 'don't bother with your rights'

You aren't.

You're hearing that it's not wise to knock heads with already agitated LEOs in the heat of the moment over issues that can be dealt with when cooler heads prevail.

Not arguing that, he asked, and was told, KNOW your laws and rights
however I give LEO's NO slack, they must follow the law, like us all. and yes, KNOW YOUR RIGHTS, and I'm not saying be stupid and belligerent, however, knowing your rights and standing up for yourself as much as possible. Ask a Lawyer, cops will lie, cheat and steal to get a 'good' conviction, most give cops a pass, certainly prosecutors

and Civil Servants (and think of this, they neither PROTECT nor SERVE a population) are supposed to be responsible to their employers, us. Next we hear about how dangerous their job is... sorry doesn't make top ten year in year out... and #1 hazard are vehicle related.

He asked, and yeah, carrying a gun makes it that much more, knowing his rights and working with the cops, discussing it with them, and a good CRIMINAL (cause um, cops ain't experts...) attorney might be time well spent for ALL of us. And yes, you can be dead right, and dead and right.

 

[AABEN]

I think you did wright! They check you and let you go. They was doing there job.

 

[Fred Fuller]

Civil Servants (and think of this, they neither PROTECT nor SERVE a population) are supposed to be responsible to their employers, us

Better find a narrower brush there. QUICKLY.

I retired as a Department of the Army civilian employee eight years ago...

 

[diablo2184]

they had "reasonable doubt" if there was a call about a shooting in the area.

 

[Shadow 7D]

you are right Fred

Police AS civil servants
the are there to ensure order, not protect
and they are responsible to that level of government, and the elected official, usually through an appointed commander...

 

[Fred Fuller]

When I entered into federal civil service I was sworn in as follows:

An individual, except the President, elected or appointed to an office of honor or profit in the civil service or uniformed services, shall take the following oath: “I, AB, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God.”

-- http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/5/3331

I've never forgotten that. I was responsible for millions of dollars worth of government property and for several other employees as well, and I had thousands of soldiers and their families to take care of. I am satisfied with the job I did of all that, and I never forgot where the money that paid for it all came from in the first place.

FWIW...

 

[Sgt_R]

This has never happened to me. I have never been asked to exit the vehicle when stopped. I have never been asked if they could do a search.

Been there. I was a teenager at the time, and it was a blatant fishing expedition on the part of my local PD.

I was asked to exit the vehicle, and I complied. They asked if they could search my vehicle, I politely refused. Then they said that if I wouldn't consent to a search, they would detain me until a K9 unit could be called in. I said "Ok, go ahead, but you still can't search my car."

After about 10 more minutes on the side of the road, I asked "Are you going to call that K9 now, or am I free to go?" They let me go.

I never was charged with anything, and I don't recall the reason that was given for the stop. Possibly I just "looked suspicious."

R

 

[JohnKSa]

His car wasn't reported leaving the scene.

Yes, it was.

...my vehicle was reported leaving the area.

They asked if they could search my vehicle, I politely refused.

If they ASK, you can always refuse. The fact that they ask is generally strong evidence that they can't do it without permission.

In the OP's case, they did not ask because they did not have to ask. His vehicle was reported leaving the scene of a crime and that gave them probable cause to search it.

 

[Sgt_R]

Yes, it was.If they ASK, you can always refuse. The fact that they ask is generally strong evidence that they can't do it without permission.

In the OP's case, they did not ask because they did not have to ask. His vehicle was reported leaving the scene of a crime and that gave them probable cause to search it.

Absolutely. And even if they don't ask, or if you refuse and they conduct a search anyway, on the side of the road at 2am really isn't the best place to debate probable cause with the local PD.

Clearly state "I do not consent to a search" loudly enough to be sure it's picked up by the dash cam in the cruiser, then **** and get a lawyer.

To be clear: in the OPs case, I expect that they had enough PC to do what they did, and since the OP wasn't charged with anything, fighting it after the fact wouldn't be worth the effort anyway.

R