CCW'r Shoots Cop in Head 4 Times

[Deanimator]

Hang the perp... I don't care if it was Self Defense

What you're saying is that you don't care about the law.

If we're going to throw the criminal law out the window, why even HAVE police? What are they supposed to enforce? Self-defense is the law of the land in all fifty states. Killing someone regardless of guilt or innocence, contrary to the law is exactly what the alleged killer is accused of.

As I said previously, I don't have any reason to believe that the cop was doing anything wrong. On the other hand, if he were a Chicago cop, that would be my FIRST inclination.

 

[FieroCDSP]

BTW, for those wondering what the racial angle is, the cop was white, the suspect black. The DA might argue profiling, but Twinsburg is not known for its racists. Twinsburg is also the kind of place that would have a noise ordinance. If this guy was blasting his bass at 3AM, the cop has probable cause for a stop.

 

[Maelstrom]

i dont think he was high or drunk.

Well then clearly he wasn't. Not if YOU don't think so.

 

[lookn4varmints]

People seem like they're forgetting that the news lies and makes mistakes ALOT.

Amen! I am not willing to quickly accept the media's assertion that the shooter possessed a permit. Is the Ohio CCW database a public one? Could someone shed a little light here?

I used to think Ronald Reagan's philosophy of "trust, but verify" could be applied to the media, but this is true no longer; now it's "don't trust and always verify." Journalistic objectivity has been replaced by agenda-driven political propaganda.

This reminds me of a statement from my Dad, a long time ago, we were talking about a story in our local paper.

"The only thing you can take as the truth, is on the front page, top right"
Said my Dad, "the price".

Old Guy has a VERY wise father!

 

[D94R]

I detest people who play loud music, esp. rap or heavy metal. I think they should all be put away.

Come on down off your horse, it's a long fall if you're not careful.

 

[hankdatank1362]

You darn skippy violating a noise ordinance will get you pulled over. I got popped 11 times in my youth, 5 resulting in citations (no points, just a fine, which gets knocked down ridiculously low if you show up in court) and 6 warnings.

Then again, I installed car stereos for a living and competed on a national level. It was good advertising.



As for the story... well... SD is gonna be a rough sell, especially with 4 close range head shots, 3 when the officer was already lying on the pavement and lo longer posed a threat (if he did to begin with, which I highly doubt.)

I hate to prejudge, but I agree with the prosecutor. I think this is gonna be "laughable", and the shooter is gonna fry.

 

[Crunker1337]

Could this have been self-defense? Yes, it's quite possible. Could this have been an act of murder? Yes, it's quite possible.
People need to stop coming to early conclusions. Even the police haven't recovered all the evidence yet. Plus, the defending lawyer says he's got a witness, and the man didn't run far if he was recovered an hour later...
I can't comment on anything yet.

 

[TexasRifleman]

Well according to that one guy from the Brady Campaign, permit holders commit thousands of crimes a year.

Really.

Yes, I confess. I'm a permit holder and I commit several crimes a year myself.

Just last week I ran a stop sign. My Harley is 3 months out of registration and I got a speeding ticket in April.

I'm a criminal with a permit... WOOT

 

[H088]

BTW, for those wondering what the racial angle is, the cop was white, the suspect black. The DA might argue profiling, but Twinsburg is not known for its racists. Twinsburg is also the kind of place that would have a noise ordinance. If this guy was blasting his bass at 3AM, the cop has probable cause for a stop.

I am tired of people bringing up the race card, that has nothing to do with. I just don't believe police anymore then I believe crack-heads. The people who automatically believe that cops are always in the right and never do anything wrong annoy me. Police aren't any better or worse then any other human, they are not angels nor demons they are simply people paid to enforce laws. Look at the ATF.

Maybe the officer did nothing wrong and simply got senselessly killed, maybe not - we will have to see.

 

[ilbob]

Maybe the cop deserved it who knows, I don't believe anything the police say. Most cops cross the line and abuse their power, this guy might have got what was coming to him.

Being shot four times in the head is what you get for abuse of power? I am as big a critic of police abuse of power as there probably is on this forum, but you don't get to just decide to shoot them one morning at 2 am.

Why anyone would shoot a cop over being stopped for a noise infraction is just odd though.

 

[rtroha]

The officer's gun was still in its holster when they found him.

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2008/07/dispatcher_911_calls_outine_tw.html

 

[Shung]

this is not about cops or CCW..

most probably it is just about someone loosing it totally, getting crazy and killing someone else for nothing.

It happends everyday all over the world.. with guns, but also knives, screwdrivers, cars, baseball bats, stones, and god knows whatever else.

Pretty sad for the victim, and I won't blame his family for starting a crusade against the killer "object of the crime" (in this case gun + ccw) , but I expect autorities, justice, politicians and citizens to understand that the PERSON is guilty, not what he used to commit his crime.

He could have done it many other ways..

Every thing has a price.. CCW has one.. but how many lifes are saved for 1 sad and drammatic event like the one we are talking about here..

that is how I see it, and how I would try to talk about it.

 

[XDKingslayer]

The officer's gun was still in its holster when they found him.

Of course it was. Hard to cuff someone with a gun in your hand.

 

[Czar]

Unless the shooter has proof that the cop was holding a gun on him and threatening to murder him in cold blood, it's hard to see his self-defense claim holding up. Even if the cop was being overly rough with him, lethal force is only justified in a situation like this if your life is in danger.

The fact that he had one cuff snapped on him sort of impies that the shooting took place while the cop was trying to restrain him. I think his lawyer is going to have a tough time making self-defense fly as justification unless a lot more supporting information comes out.

The officer's gun was still in its holster when they found him.

What about the tazer - isn't that a LEO's first go-to device that has in some cases proven lethal? As said before there are too many scenarios that could have played out with the given information and it could go either way pending further evidence.

I can speculate as well as the next guy, but I'm going to sit back and wait for more information before making my call. There are plenty of directions for this to go, and I'll put my money on there being stupidity from both principles in this engagement - the only question is how much from each and does it warrant a conviction.

This will be interesting nontheless...



Czar

 

[Mannlicher]

Looks to me like there is a bunch of info missing here. This is common with police reports and news write ups.
Pulling a guy for loud music though, on the suspicion that he is drinking is bogus in my humble opinion.

 

[TAB]

I can speculate as well as the next guy, but I'm going to sit back and wait for more information before making my call. There are plenty of directions for this to go, and I'll put my money on there being stupidity from both principles in this engagement - the only question is how much from each and does it warrant a conviction.

ding, ding, ding we have a winner

 

[JDoe]

Depending upon the circumstances, conditions and the environment it may be lawful to resist an unlawful arrest in some but not all jurisdictions.

This doesn't mean that one can "kill a cop" and get away with it if the LEO is attempting an unlawful arrest but it is an interesting part of our history and our laws.

For anyone that is interested have a look at RESISTING UNLAWFUL ARREST IN MISSISSIPPI: RESISTING THE MODERN TREND, by Craig Hemmens and published in the California Criminal Law Review.

Lessons to learn and that might not have been applied by the deceased officer are to be found in Force Science News Letter #62 of December 28, 2006 review of a 5 year FBI study...

Among other things, the data reveal that most would-be cop killers:

--show signs of being armed that officers miss;

--have more experience using deadly force in "street combat" than their intended victims;

--practice with firearms more often and shoot more accurately;

--have no hesitation whatsoever about pulling the trigger. "If you hesitate," one told the study's researchers, "you're dead. You have the instinct or you don't. If you don't, you're in trouble on the street...."

What really happened is an unknown that will hopefully be revealed in time so less of this kind of event happens in the future.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Well according to that one guy from the Brady Campaign, permit holders commit thousands of crimes a year.

Really.

Well, it is actually true. Of course, there are millions of concealed carry permit holders. Texas has 70-150 CHL holder offenses per year (last 5 years, http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administration/crime_records/chl/convrates.htm). If you multiply that by the 30 some odd states with concealed carry and the crimes total in the thousands.

However, concealed carry permit holders commit a very small fraction of such crimes. While permit holders may commit thousands, it is thousands out of millions.

 

[Steve N]

Report that I heard, not read, was that the cruiser was an older model and did not contain a dash cam. You may be able to verify this by watching videos of the reporting at www.newsnet5.com.

At the newsnet5.com website, they have posted a transcript of the police radio traffic. It appears that dispatch attempted to tell the officer that the suspect had a CCW, but the officer didn't respond.

 

[ProficientRifleman]

I didn't see anything either, that said the shooter was legally carrying concealed, only that the officer was shot.

Is there more?

 

[Czar]

Report that I heard, not read, was that the cruiser was an older model and did not contain a dash cam. You may be able to verify this by watching videos of the reporting at www.newsnet5.com.

At first I didn’t believe that the car wouldn’t have a dash-cam until I checked with a local LEO buddy of mine… He has a brand new police cruiser truck 2008 model year, no cam… Plenty of other hi-tech gear, but no cam.

Now the truth will only be known to the principles and regardless of what really happened, this guy is going to get convicted because by and large people (read: Juries) don’t like to hear about the widow and 3 month old left without a daddy. Proportional stupidity aside and assuming the shooter was in the right, corroborating video from a dash cam would have been this guy’s best evidence. For him to avoid jail time, he better have a sharp lawyer and some other evidence not yet disclosed.

I’ll take “Positions I never want to be in” for 1,000 please Alex!

 

[anarchris]

I hate that loud rap stuff

its not at all like loud heavy metal, the base really hurts my ears, treble you can just roll up your windows.
I put in a really loud stereo in my old car to fight this when I lived in NV.
The neighbor would blast snoopdawg or whatever so I would go outside and blast Metallica.
After awhile he got the message.

I am willing to bet the young perp was blasting rapcrud and was high,
crack/weed both cause paranoia.

I hope they did a drug screen/alcohol test on the perp.
My bs meter is telling me he was drunk/stoned and stupid and guilty guilty guilty.

 

[akodo]

here in MN we had a CCWer shoot a police officer too, and later claim it was self defense.

He had a very convincing case, Cop was acting outsize is jurisdiction, out of uniform, but supposedly on an approved mission my his employer who failed to notify the jurisdiction where he was in.

CCWer didn't know it was a cop, fired, fled to a public place and called 911

The it totally dropped from the media attention, which tells me that the CCWer was exhonorated, and the cops didn't want to charge one of their own, so the guy probably got fired quietly.

 

[Werewolf]

Hmmmmm...

Bail set at 5 Million Dollars.

Seems a bit high.

Wonder what bail would have been set at if the guy had shot a subject instead of one of the state's elite citizens?

Probably wouldn't have been 5 million...

 

[Jimmy Dean]

While I am waiting on the full story, or more likely the case to be resolved. For the current, I am likely to suspect that the case will favor the officer, but we will see.

I want to point something out though.

In many states, shooting and killing to prevent a kidnapping is justifiable. Unlawful arrest/detention IS kidnapping.