Certified Armorers vs. Self Proclaimed Gunplumbers

[Spreadfire Arms]

i have a question to pose.

if you have to get your firearm worked on, and you don't know how to do it yourself, and had the option to:

1. take it to a factory certified armorer, or

2. take it to a person who claims to have worked on that type of gun for years and thus does not "need" to be a factory trained armorer

which one would you take it to, assuming both parties charge the same amount of money and turnaround time is the same?

my question stems from someone i know who says he has been working on AR-15's for the last 27 years of his life.

when i went to Blackwater USA for Bushmaster Armorer school his reply was, "I'm going go to Colt's Armorer School, it's a better name than Bushmaster."

when i signed up for the Colt Armorer School scheduled next month he said, "I got an invitation to go but I turned it down because I'm going to do the Rock River school instead." Never mind Rock River doesn't have one yet.

now he is saying that he does not need any armorer certifications because "they couldn't teach me anything anyway" and his 27 years of working on AR-15's is good enough.

i'm just wondering if these certifications mean anything to a guy, when he takes in his firearm to be worked on, if the guy is factory certified or not?

i'm going to Colt and Remington next month.....just want to know if i'm wasting my time!

 

[HI express]

Depends

S.A.,
I watched an armorer for years who when I asked around from people who had him work on their weapons, claimed that he was good.
So imagine my surprise when I brought in two Colt Officers Models for him to do a relatively minor job on instead of using the inventor of the part needing to be installed. (The armorer who invented the part was a little too far away for me to take my guns to, then of course, I would have to go pick it up when done.) Then I caught some attitude when I talked to the inventor/armorer.
So, because I was lazy I used the nearby smith.
Bottom line? The local gun guy messed up both guns. He wasn't certified by the companies but he claimed he had years of experience working on this weapon. Of course afterwards, when I voiced my opinion at the gunshop (the owner was my friend) then other guys stepped up and told me their horror stories with this gunsmith (many of the guys were police officers who needed these weapons, often as BUGs.)
So, ask around with other people who have had work done by the armorer and see what their opinions are.

 

[waterhouse]

I'm not sure, but aren't some warranties voided unless the weapon is worked on by someone that is certified by the company?

Personally, I tend to go by word of mouth, not how many certifications someone has or how long they claim to have been working with a certain type of gun. If everyone at the range/shop/internet forum says a guy knows what he's doing I'll let him work on my toys.

adrien

 

[Spreadfire Arms]

i would think the factory warranty would be voided but that would be in the fine print on that manufacturer's warranty. so i suppose you'd have to check to be sure.

 

[Evil_Ed]

I'd go with the certified, but I would also ask around a lot to get opinions from former customers before I made my final decision. I trust my guns with my life, I don't trust just anybody to work on them.

 

[patent]

I like certifications. Word of mouth is even more important. I'd rarely go with a certified guy if I can't get any reviews of his work, but a certification gives one confidence that the reviews are probably correct. If all else is equal, I'd go with the certified guy. Its hardly a guarantee, but it means he has at least SOME training.

patent

 

[jefnvk]

Certified.

 

[Powderman]

Certification is good, but word of mouth is what I'd go by.

I have had a .45 built by a Hawaiian gunsmith that I had not even heard of until I got into Bullseye shooting. I don't think he's been "certified" by anyone.

But, he's been building Bullseye pistols for I believe close to 50 years or more! His reputation is sterling. The ball gun he built for me puts 5 rounds in a little over an inch at 50 yards.

His guns are VERY much in demand.

 

[roo_ster]

Word of mouth is tops.

If I am new to an area, I might go by cert, however.

Certs from the factory are useless for some of the older weapons that I own.

 

[thereisnospoon]

Certifications?

I usually carry/shoot Glocks, which means I don't need anything fixed

But, if you give me enough time, I can print a Certificate for just about anything on mu handy-dandy cumpooter.

So, I go by word of mouth.

 

[Old Fuff]

It is always a good idea to check anyone's qualifications first. Certification may lend some credence to someone's reputation but it's no guarantee that they do good work. A thumbs-up from satisfied customers will always be the best recommendation. I worry most about those who have to toot their own horns. If someone is really good they won't need to be the one to tell you.

 

[R.H. Lee]

Nothing wrong with certification, but it is by no means a guarantee of current competence. Better to see a sample of the smith's work and have him provide you with references of satisfied customers (unless of course he is a world renowned pistolsmith.)

 

[Zrex]

I can't speak for guns, but for other pricey items, I try to find certified repair facilities.

I have a Hypertherm plasma cutter that cost me about $3500 bucks new and when it broke last week, I drove the 150 miles to take it to an authorized repair facility. There is no way I would have dropped it off with some guy who says he has been working on them for 27 years (or whatever) and didn't have either the skills or the time, or the followthrough to get certified.

FWIW...

 

[HankB]

Word of mouth is better than someone who simply "hangs paper." I've had one of my hunting rifles reworked by a gentleman who was basically a self-taught gunsmith - he was easy to work with, did good work which was finished when promised and charged reasonable rates. No armorer's schools that I know of, and professionally he was an air traffic controller, but I'm happy with his work.

On the other hand, I had a friend who was at a Glock shoot who almost came to blows with the Glock factory armorer - they were doing a "free" teardown and checkup of Glocks, and the miserable so-and-so, upon seeing the genuine Glock 3.5# connector in a G17, was going to exchange it for a 5.5# connector.

And a neighbor sent a Winchester M70 back to the factory for something or other - I think it was for a cracked stock - and the factory armorers hosed up his tuned trigger; instead of the 3 lbs or so it was adjusted to, it came back "readjusted to factory specifications" at about 7 or 8 pounds, and the screws were epoxied in place.

 

[Old Fuff]

HankB:

In the latter two cases the factory personel may have been under orders to modify the respective trigger pulls to "factory standard" for liability reasons. I always assume this will be the case, and ask first. The cause of this is not so much the gun companies as it is anti-gun lawyers. In turn the insurance companies that issue liability coverage to the manufacturers are now insisting that anything they work on must leave the shop "up to spec." You may disagree with this policy, but put the blame in the right place.

 

[Sam]

After seeing what it takes to get "certified" by some companies, chances are you won't think much of it.

WOM is best preferably from several customers, look at some of the work too.
Ask to see his carry piece.

Sam

 

[Sheldon]

I get the impression a lot of the armorer "certification" classes just go over parts swapping and fitting of new parts and such. That does not necessarily make one a gunsmith. You will see a lot of gunsmiths come from a machinist background who have the skills and machinery to do a lot of things a factory certified armorer probably can't do. Granted there is more to gunsmithing than those two things alone. I would go by word of mouth or from organizations like the American Pistolsmithing Guild to get a list of gunsmiths whose work has passed the judgement of other gunsmiths. I feel lucky to have an APG gunsmith relatively closeby (Alan Tanaka). A couple times he has fixed the gun while I watched and that sure beat having to leave a gun and wait a couple weeks like a lot of places will have you do.

 

[TarpleyG]

The more a "gunsmith" is runnin' his mouth, the less time he has to be working on guns. Now, all the really good 'smiths that I know of, don't have that kind of time. Draw you own conclusions.

Greg

 

[Spreadfire Arms]

yes there is a difference between a gunsmith and an armorer.

a gunsmith is able to do some "custom" work to the gun, i.e. cutting a barrel down, re-crowning, refinishing, etc.

an armorer usually swaps out one factory part for another, or sees if the parts inside are broken or not installed correctly.

sorry about not clearing that up. i wasn't bringing gunsmiths into the discussion......gunsmith is different than armorer.

 

[bogie]

None of the gunsmiths I know are "certified."

Their stuff takes up to year, with their current backlogs, and rifles will run you over $2,500.

 

[Onmilo]

A Certification is like a College Degree.
It may not indicate the person actually know what they are doing but it shows the person made the effort,
and it looks good hanging on the wall.

A person with years of experience in a field will be far more qualified than someone with a fresh new certificate, you can take that to the bank.

 

[kimbernut]

Well said,Greg!

Well said,Greg!The best generally don't need to boast.Their work says all that needs to be said and the word will get around.Word of mouth by customers is a good gauge.

 

[swacje41]

Another fact to consider is that most armorers are trained to bring a gun back to factory specifications and maintain them, instead of modify them. I prefer to use a certified armorer whenever appropriate, ut some work is better done by a gunsmith.

 

[PvtPyle]

Well, schools can teach you things that you may not find in everyday books. Plus if you break one of the guns it is usually not a big deal to them. And usually what you get is a simple tear down and rebuild class and some books. Very rarely do you get fixes and trouble shooting "from the field".

That said, life can teach you more than schools in many cases. But this guys sounds like an a$$hat and I would not let him work on anything of mine.

 

[Spreadfire Arms]

also one factor i'm looking at is that the normal "non-LE" citizen cannot ususally get into the armorer schools.

Colt, Smith & Wesson, Glock, and Sig Sauer are ones I can name off the top of my head that don't allow non-law enforcement (i.e. a normal citizen) into an armorer school. Glock will allow a stocking FFL dealer to but that is the only exception.

just wondering if having to jump through all their hoops is worth it in the end. thanks for the input so far.