CFE pistol .45 ACP Hodgdon #s ??

[Dudedog]

CFE pistol seems a little slow for .45 but I thought I would load up some rounds and give it a try. I planned on loading some MBC 200gr coated SWCs and some RMR 230RN plated. I had data from Hodgdons site I copied into a spreadsheet a while back. Pulled it up to take a look and said what??? The #s for 200 lead looked a little strange. Thinking I somehow messed up filling in the spreadsheet I went to Hodgdons site to check. (very concerned as I thought I was very careful when I transferred the numbers to the spreadsheet back when). Turns out I got them right.

Do those #s for 200 Lead SWC look funny to anyone or is it just me?
The OAL between the 200gr bullets is different but Lead start charge 7.4gr, Jacketed MAX charge is 7.2gr.

Using 230gr bullets with the same OAL they list lead 5.4 - 6.2, jacketed 6 - 6.8. Those numbers seem to be reasonable and make sense to me.

Anyone loaded CFE pistol and a 200 Lead or coated lead SWC?
I am really thinking about just using the starting jacketed charge and working up, but was wondering if anyone had worked up to near Hodgdons MAX. I shooting paper targets for fun so I don't need of 1100fps but was curious.
Pretty stout vels for 200 lead IMO.



(looks like it's time for a ladder and the chrono...)

 

[evtSmtx]

Either I haven't had enough coffee yet or that data is wierd as you say.

I just looked on hodgon's site and(note different bullet profiles) but

• 180 GR. LFP: 7.1 - 8.0 grains
• 200 GR CAST LSWC: 7.4 - 8.2 grains
• 230 GR LRN: 5.4 - 6.2 grains

charge going UP as bullet weight increases from 180 - 200grthat ain't right

I shoot a lot of CFE pistol with 230 PRN and find 6.3-6.4 is my personal favorite for practice ammo

I personally would confirm the data we both see with hodgdon before proceeding. I've found them to be helpful and quick to respond

 

[kcofohio]

I can give you a general fps. for MBC 200 gr. IDP #4-XD with HY-TEK coating. All loads were from a 4" barrel.

General, because the chrony strings were filled and I was using the last one for general info.

With the 200 gr. FN, with a COAL of 1.190" (bullet is .546" lg.). CFE Pistol @ 7.6 gr. was just breaking the 900 fps. PMC casings and CCI 300 primers were used.

I'm hoping in the next few weeks to get out and do a full string recording.

If it is of any use for you, I did the same with the Berry's 200 gr. HHP (bullet is .547" lg.) with CFE Pistol. With a COAL of 1.200", Winchester casings and Rem 2 1/2 primers were used. I got to 7.9 gr. to get me 960-989 fps., Which Berry's recommends 970 fps for these bullets.

YMMV.

 

[Dudedog]

Thanks kcofohio,
that makes me feel better. I had some loaded with 7gr to start (a hair under the listed start charge for lead 200gr SWC) and kept looking at them, then the data, then at my bullet puller, then back at them....

Looks like Hodgdons vel #s are a bit high from your tests. Your #s make more sense velocity wise. A 200gr at 1100+ would be stout.
I will shoot the 7gr loads and go up from there.

 

[kcofohio]

Thanks kcofohio,

A 200gr at 1100+ would be stout.
I will shoot the 7gr loads and go up from there.

You're welcome Dudedog.

Agree with the 1100 fps loads. I'll limit my push to 1000 fps, thank you!
But prefer low 900's.

 

[Dudedog]

I am loading the SWCs for paper targets. 900fps is more than enough for paper targets. I like medium power loads for fun. No need to push for this use.
Now if the targets would just hold still when I go to shoot them......
(That has to be the reason I can't hit the center....moving target)

 

[Mostly Lead]

I just looked on hodgon's site and(note different bullet profiles) but
180 GR. LFP: 7.1 - 8.0 grains
200 GR CAST LSWC: 7.4 - 8.2 grains
230 GR LRN: 5.4 - 6.2 grains

charge going UP as bullet weight increases from 180 - 200grthat ain't right

As you noted, the bullet profiles are different. Couldn't that have an effect on case capacity and thus pressure? Just thinking about how one thing affects another...

For example: I'm looking at the Speer manual, #13, at 45 Colt loads. The start load for Unique and a 200gn L-SWC is .6 gn less than a 250gn L-SWC. The max loads are identical. But they also use different COL's, the 200gn tested at 1.515" and the 250gn at 1.600".

It's these little things I find most interesting about reloading and why I enjoy having multiple sources of data to compare before loading.

 

[njl]

Sometimes data looks screwy like this when one of the loads is a "reduced velocity" target load, and the load range is for recommended velocities, stopping well before pressure is an issue. That could be the situation here for the 180gr load. I have no experience with CFE.

 

[Mostly Lead]

The OAL between the 200gr bullets is different but Lead start charge 7.4gr, Jacketed MAX charge is 7.2gr.

Looking through my Modern Reloading manual, I quickly found quite a few instances where the Lead numbers are higher than the Jacketed.

Under 45 ACP, IMR 800x starts .1 gn higher for 200 gn Lead than 200 gn Jacketed. Max is .3 gn higher.

Same bullets, Titegroup starts .1 gn higher for Lead and max is .2 gn higher...

There is a great section in Lee's manual on pressure that helps explain why these numbers are what they are...

 

[Lj1941]

CFE Pistol

I find the same weirdness with CFE & 40 S & W loads. In this case it is plated vs jacketed loads that don't seem to make sense. I follow the published data and everything seems to work out although I don't have a chronograph to çheck velocities.

 

[Dudedog]

Interesting on Hodgdons site most .45 loads for lead are close to jacketed.
My experience with 9mm follows Hodgdons general trend that in 9mm lead requires less powder for the same velocity.
With most other powders I have used in .45 with 230s lead seems to need a little less than plated for the same velocity.
Yes I am sure the OAL accounts for part of the charge difference, less space in the case = higher pressure = less powder.

Lj1941, I don't own a .40 so I hadn't looked at the .40 loads for CFE but it interesting that they are "weird" as well.

Hope to get to the range tomorrow and test the 200 coated SWCs with 7gr CFE and the OAL I am using over the chrono,. (got sidetracked today with work around the house. )
I'm sure Hodgdon's #s are ok or we would have heard about it by now, again I just thought the #s were odd.

 

[RPegram]

I'm glad I'm not the only one that saw those loads and questioned them. I shoot both a SR45 and a XDS 3.3 in 45. The XDS will shoot SWC's all day long without a hiccup, but the SR doesn't like them at any length, jams about every third round. When I started experimenting with this powder under a SWC, I broke the rules and started at the minimum charge and went down until I found a load I was comfortable shooting. I found 6.8 gr CFE Pistol was comfortable to shoot in the XDS. I went as high as 7.4, but those kicked like a +P round in the XDS. The max charge of 8.2 is unimaginable for me. I don't have a chrono, so have no velocity data. I've now switched to LRN for both pistols and 5.4 gr has been good in both. I mainly shoot 8" steel plates at 50' and get good accuracy in the SR with this round. Off subject, but so far CFE Pistol is my favorite for 9mm, 5.0 gr under a 124gr LRN is a tack driver. It is also my favorite for metering consistency, varies by +-0.02gr each drop. I have also found it plays extremely well with non-coated lead. Same bullet with other powders has been awful.

 

[Dudedog]

Shot some over the Chrono today.
.45ACP 7gr CFE Pistol MBC 200 SWC coated OAL 1.26
1014.00
993.00
985.00
1026.00
1013.00

Average 1006.20
ES 41.00
SD 16.75
PF 201.24

.45ACP 5.7gr CFE Pistol MBC 200 SWC coated OAL 1.26
808.00
801.00
816.00
805.00
827.00

Average 811.40
ES 26.00
SD 10.31
PF 162.28

The 5.7 is way below Hodgdon's listed start charge but I was attempting to come up with a CFE load that had the velocity of most of the other starting loads with a 200 SWC. Hodgdon listed 5.4gr as a start with a 230 lead RN so I added .3gr for the lighter 200gr bullet. The 5.7 load functioned fine in my full size Citadel 1911. I mayl test these again in the future.
The 7 gr loads were all around 1000fps so Hodgdon's vels appear to be reasonable. I would guess that 7.4 would be around the listed 1042.
Don't know about the MAX load at 8.2 as I have no need to try to drive a lead SWC 1100+ fps in .45 ACP.. No pressure signs at all with 7gr.


Test with Hornady 185 XTPs
.45ACP 7gr Hornady 185 XTP OAL 1.25
931.00
897.00
893.00
943.00
937.00

Average 920.20
ES 50.00
SD 23.44
PF 184.04

.45ACP 7.3gr Hornady 185 XTP OAL 1.25
988.00
1012.00
1024.00
998.00
1005.00

Average 1005.40
ES 36.00
SD 13.67
PF 201.08


Accuracy seemed decent with all loads but I was shooting standing unsupported at 25 yards so it's hard to say how well they really shot.

I didn't test my favorite RMR 230 plated RN with CFE, because I was waiting to get an idea of how it behaved in .45. 230 RN test in the works as well.

It makes me feel a little better that I am not the only one that did a double take with the listed loads.

 

[kcofohio]

Dudedog, thanks for your results!

When you shot with 5.7 gr., did you notice soot on one side of the casing. It seemed when I was around 6 gr., I would get soot. But it could be the chamber in my barrel.

Now I'm really wanting to get the data on my loads. Hopefully this week. When I do, I'll post the results.

Yesterday I redid a work up for the coated MBC 200 gr. FN, between 6.8-7.6 gr. And some Berry's 200 gr. RSFN, at about the same charge. Also did some in the MBC 185 gr. SWC.

Again, thanks Dudedog for posting your data.

 

[Dudedog]

Your welcome kcofohio!
Yep, dirty cases so they are not sealing well at 5.7. If 6 still does not seal well then a medium load probably needs to be up around 6.3 or higher, so there may be no nice 200gr medium load with CFE psitol .
CFE pistol just may be to slow for nice plinking loads in this caliber. I don't mind the dirty cases, but dirty cases usually = dirty load.
My favorite for these loads is HP38 but I thought I might try CFE pistol since I had it on hand. (lots of other things I could use/have used)
I still need to load some up with the RMR 230 RNs. CFE pistol might be better with the heavier bullet. I don't "need" to use it in .45 but just thought I would give it a try.
I may work up the 185 XTPs a bit, but even there I prefer to sacrifice velocity for less recoil. (for those of you who are going , I am a bit crazy )
CFE pistol might be the ticket for people who want heavier .45 ACP loads.

Nothing wrong with having different powders on hand but it's nice to know how well one will work in both 9mm and .45 in case I need it to do double duty.

Be interesting to see your results kcofohio, thanks for your feed back.

 

[kcofohio]

Since my last loads for CFE Pistol in 45 Auto, I have purchased a set of Lyman's check weights.

This time I was able to calibrate the scale nearer the target throw. I also verified each throw, ensuring each was +/-.1 gr. (Really looking forward to trying out the new Lee's Pro Drum that is on its' way.)

Loads were recorded with A ProChrono Digital. A 4" barrel was used. It was around 68', sunny, with a storm coming in(which totally broke apart).

Start load 6.8 gr. and worked up to 7.6 gr.

45 Auto 200 gr. MBC FN w/Hi-Tek coating
CFE Pistol @ 6.8 gr.
Primers: Rem 2 1/2
COAL: 1.190"
Mixed casings
5-shot string
Hi....920
Lo....865
Avg...892
ES....55
SD....20


45 Auto 200 gr. MBC FN w/Hi-Tek coating
CFE Pistol @ 7.6 gr.
COAL; 1.190"
Primer: Rem 2 1/2
Mixed casings
4-shot string
Hi....977
Lo....959
Avg..969
ES...18
SD...7

Also recorded some plated Berry's 200 gr. RSFN from 6.8 gr. to 7.6 gr.

45 Auto 200 gr. Berry's RSFN
CFE Pistol @ 6.8 gr.
COAL: 1.182"
Primers: Rem 2 1/2
Mixed casings
5-shot string
Hi....830
Lo....749
Avg..788
ES....81
SD....34

45 Auto 200 gr. Berry's RSFN
CFE Pistol @ 7.6 gr.
COAL: 1.182"
Primers: Rem 2 1/2
Mixed casings
5-shot string
Hi...948
Lo...881
Avg..920
ES...67
SD...32

With what I thought was a storm coming in, I didn't check for accuracy.

 

[Dudedog]

kcofohio,
thanks for the #s.
I have been busy and have not had a chance to test it with 230s yet but will.
(that nasty 4 letter word "WORK", house work, yard work, work work)

Was 6.8 clean with the 200s?

 

[kcofohio]

kcofohio,
thanks for the #s.
I have been busy and have not had a chance to test it with 230s yet but will.
(that nasty 4 letter word "WORK", house work, yard work, work work)

Was 6.8 clean with the 200s?

Dudedog, you're welcome!

It seems with the MBC bullets, the higher I got in charges, the tighter the numbers were.
But not so much with the plated bullets. I might try taking those up to 8.0 gr. and see how that does, since I didn't have the velocity much up there.

All in all, it was a good day for it. And each time I'm out with the chrono, I see something that could have been done better.

 

[kcofohio]

Was 6.8 clean with the 200s?

I did notice a bit of soot on one side of the casings at the lower end. Once I got around to 7.2 gr., I didn't seem to see it then.