Cheapest way to get into Full Auto

[JTW Jr.]

The rate of fire is so high, the gun is so light, and there is so little to hold onto, that even firing short bursts a mere ten to fifteen yards away, three quarters of a 30 round magazine didn't hit a man sized target.

Practice perhaps ?

At our local match , we have a couple guys that shoot MAC's , and trust me , they are controllable , if you know what you are doing and take the time to learn to control your trigger finger.



I have no probs with a mac pulling double and triple taps at will , singles are doable as well if you work at it. This is without a LAGE upper.

There are plenty of aftermarket parts for the MAC , they are cheap , you will replace parts but again they are pretty cheap still ( compared to others ).

I prefer the UZI over all of them , I find it more comfortable to shoot , and would take an UZI over an MP5 ( even if they were priced the same ).

 

[CleverNickname]

So, I find it strange that there are tons of NIB Mac's out there.... who were these made for and why are so many still NIB.... good site(sub guns)... thanks...

There's 20 or 30 thousand of them. They're the most common transferable, by far. IIRC the reason there's so many is that the idea was to sell them overseas to private buyers but the passage of ITAR in the late 70's made it illegal to export machine guns from the US for sale to non-approved buyers (i.e. anyone other than friendly foreign governments).

And if you want a machine gun under $10k, the best gun by far will be a full-auto AR15 conversion. They're on the higher end of the price range ($8k and up) but for the money they're the best option because:

1. You can effectively convert them to a different gun by swapping an upper. I've used my M16 with mag-fed 5.56mm, belt-fed 5.56mm, 9mm, 7.62x39 and mag-fed .22LR uppers and am probably going to get a belt-fed .22LR upper soon. No other transferrable machine gun is nearly as versatile. The closest would be an HK sear, but even then you can't get a .22LR host (that I know of, correct me if I'm wrong here.)

2. M16 parts are cheap. Compared to the aforementioned HK sear, changing calibers means you have to get a whole new host gun instead of a different upper, and the host guns are generally much more expensive too. Also, working on an HK generally requires a gunsmith, whereas doing something like rebarreling an M16 upper can easily be done by someone in their garage.

3. M16 parts are plentiful and have multiple manufacturers. For example, if you burn out a barrel on an AC556 you're stuck with whatever Ruger wants to sell you. If you burn out a barrel on an FNC you better hope you can find one of the few aftermarket Green Mountain barrels that became available in the last year, otherwise you're SOL. Break something else? Better buy a second FNC to use as a parts gun.

 

[Billy Shears]

Practice perhaps ?

At our local match , we have a couple guys that shoot MAC's , and trust me , they are controllable , if you know what you are doing and take the time to learn to control your trigger finger.

Practice wouldn't help much. Not with the one I shot. The one I see you shooting in that photo is a bit different from the one I was able to shoot. Yours has quite a bit more to hang onto. The one I fired had the tiny, sliding wire shoulder stock they come with, and no forward handgrip, not even that little canvas loop handgrip you see on some of them. The result was that you could only place the support hand over the shooting hand, the same as one does with a semi-auto pistol, keep the elbows down and pull the thing tight into the shoulder as well as that tiny, flimsy, wire stock allows... and watch the damn thing spray all around the target, and hit with maybe one bullet in four. And I was shooting very short bursts of no more than three to five rounds. I was an 11B, I know how to shoot full auto weapons.

I grant you, with the accessories I see on yours, I'd warrant the MAC is a good deal more controllable. But speaking for myself, if I'm going to plunk down the kind of dough it takes to get into the full auto game, I'll pick something like the STEN or Mk. 760 I mentioned earlier, that are already far more controllable than a MAC is, cost little, if any more, and on which you don't have to pay extra for aftermarket accessories to make them easier to shoot accurately.

 

[JTW Jr.]

That is a shooter at our local match , the one I shoot is stock except for a different stock.
That original "strap" for the front is less than ideal , but with practice it works , though an added on K type grip is much better.

In 380 the mac is a buzz gun , literally rains brass. Like a pez dispenser for ammo.

A nice option ( not sure what they run now ) is an MP40 ,or mp38 , prettier to look at than ol fugly ( sten ) and very controllable. Reising is a nice subgun option as well.

 

[Billy Shears]

MP40s are rather pricey. I think they usually go for over $10,000 when you can find one for sale. The STEN has the virtue of being cheap (for a full auto these days) and relatively controllable. If money were no object, I'd prefer a Thompson, just because I've always wanted one. Or if not a Tommy gun, a Suomi. I've had a chance to handle one, but not fire it. They had a reputation for being very controllable, and accurate to over a hundred yards, even on full auto. The secret is the weight (about 10lbs empty, or around 15lbs with a 76 round drum), which soaks up the recoil of the 9mm very well, and (so I've been told), not pulling the stock tight against the shoulder -- which will cause the muzzle to rise -- but resting it fairly lightly against the shoulder while placing the thumb of the shooting hand on the back of the receiver tube.

 

[mopar92]

Interesting.. I have a Colt 6920 ... Would I be able to convert it for under 10k? I can see having a longer gun and billions of aftermarkets for the ar's .. I figured an m16 reciever and bolt/sear would be 15k!

 

[o Unforgiven o]

Interesting.. I have a Colt 6920 ... Would I be able to convert it for under 10k? I can see having a longer gun and billions of aftermarkets for the ar's .. I figured an m16 reciever and bolt/sear would be 15k!

Lightning Links can be had for under 10K, but they are becoming very hard to get. Don't quote me on this but I am almost positive that DIAS's are up around the 12k mark.

 

[LiquidTension]

Also keep in mind that Lage makes a .22 conversion kit for both regular MACs and his own uppers.

 

[ny32182]

Just a note; my 6920 has a block in the lower that, as I understand it, is designed to preclude the use of DIAS. You can get an un-blocked lower like LMT or BCM. Or have your Colt milled out I guess.

 

[GrimmLV]

m11/9 with a lage upper.

www.max-11.com

bingo!

 

[jmorris]

It's virtually uncontrollable. The rate of fire is so high, the gun is so light, and there is so little to hold onto, that even firing short bursts a mere ten to fifteen yards away, three quarters of a 30 round magazine didn't hit a man sized target.

Your doing it wrong



Nothing fancy and not a slow fire.

The gun I fired has a suppressor, but unless you have an asbestos glove, you can't hold onto that because it quickly heats up.

You have a suppressor that is not designed to be held. I built a knurled over tube for my F1 can and put header wrap between the two, problem solved.



The 556 is a good deal but costs a lot more to shoot than an SMG.

 

[JTW Jr.]

Here is a link with some of our local sub gun shooters , Jan 2010 match.
http://www.vegasshooters.com/forum/showthread.php?261-Results-of-Subgun-Match-01-10-10&daysprune=-1

There are some vids in there.

 

[Billy Shears]

You have a suppressor that is not designed to be held. I built a knurled over tube for my F1 can and put header wrap between the two, problem solved.

I have? Remember the part where this is someone else's gun I'm shooting? I'm afraid I've very little incentive to spend my money to modify someone else's gun so that I can shoot it better on the rare occasions when I may have the opportunity. And as I said, if I ever decide to spend the money to acquire a full auto weapon, I'll pick something that is simply more controllable to start with, rather than something I have to spend a good deal of extra money on in order to make it into something as controllable as other subguns already are.

 

[One-Time]

M-10/11s(AKA Mac10/11s), UZIs and maybe AC556s are all sub 10K, most Mac types are gonna be maybe 3k, uzis are somewhere near 5 or 6 IIRC and I think AC 556s are 7-10K

 

[jmorris]

Once you own one and can spend some time practicing with it you will find it controllable.

Even something as light and fast as a full auto glock is perfectly controllable with a stock on it.

There are plenty of not so stock M11's and a few M10's at machine gun shoots that do just fine. They also cost less, allowing more practice and that is what is going to make you a better FA shooter. A few mag dumps at your buddies farm won't cut it.

 

[Billy Shears]

A few mag dumps at your buddies farm won't cut it.

You obviously didn't read what I posted. So thanks for the advice, but I'll keep my own counsel about what sort of full auto gun to buy if I ever choose to do so, thanks all the same.

 

[Zundfolge]

Cheapest FA I've ever seen is a Reising ... here's one for $4500 (I almost wonder if one could be dressed up to look like a tommy gun). Same guy has a Walther MPK for $5k that looks real cool.

Another option is to find a range nearby that rents out sub guns ... go burn through a couple thousand rounds and maybe that will sate your desire for a FA once and for all (after taking a turn behind a Mac 10 I realized that as neeto as FA is there's just no way I'd ever be interested in paying to feed one even if I was rich).

 

[straitnate14]

not to hijack but is there anyway to get that walther mpl as a semi auto? http://www.summitgunbroker.com/Walther_MPK_full_auto.html

 

[Ian]

Just a though; you can get a semiauto Browning 1919 with tripod and high-quality hand crank for something like $2000. That's a pretty fair substitute for real full-auto for a whole lot less money (and no NFA transfer required). You can set up a 1919 without too much trouble for .308, .30-06, 8mm Mauser, and 7.62x54R (plus other calibers if you get really serious), so you can shoot whatever is least expensive at the moment. And it looks a lot cooler than a Mac sitting in the living room.

 

[Billy Shears]

not to hijack but is there anyway to get that walther mpl as a semi auto? http://www.summitgunbroker.com/Walth...full_auto.html

That one? No. Not unless you become a class III dealer. It's a dealer sample; so you have to be a dealer. But that model of gun was made from 1963 to 1985. No full auto weapon made after 1986 is fully transferable to civilians, and no imported ones made after 1968. So the only way short of becoming a dealer to own a full auto Walther MPL is to find one for sale that was imported into the states and legally registered for the short time they were importable for sale to civilians between 1963 and 1968.

 

[jmorris]

Just a though; you can get a semiauto Browning 1919 with tripod and high-quality hand crank for something like $2000. That's a pretty fair substitute for real full-auto for a whole lot less money

It's an OK way to turn money into noise but they are cheap at the buy to run them costs a lot more than an SMG. In just a few thousand rounds a M10 or M11 would be less expensive. This short video would cost you $30 or so using factory .308 ammo.

And it looks a lot cooler than a Mac sitting in the living room

Or than an old shotgun over the fireplace.


As for control I found some videos of newbies doing a few mag dumps down at my farm last year. M10 45acp stock PS with a 14 year old first timer.



Here is one of the MP5. Again first time shooters.


A little bit too small for an M16 but keeps them in the pond on 3rd burst.



As for weight here is one very light glock machinegun.

 

[jmorris]

If you note the stance and what the gun does upon firing you can tell who is used to shooting FA.

 

[Ian]

That's the point of having multiple calibers set up for a belt-fed. You can get 7.62x54R for 20c/rd right now, and 8mm for 26 cents. That's not much more than the 18 cents I can see for cheap 9mm. People who stocked up a couple years ago got rifle-caliber ammo for less than half of current prices.

 

[JTW Jr.]

Just a though; you can get a semiauto Browning 1919 with tripod and high-quality hand crank for something like $2000. That's a pretty fair substitute for real full-auto

Not a substitute for Full Auto in any way . I hear people try to claim that all the time ,the reality is it is either Full auto or it isn't.

Just like those that claim airsoft or paintball is the same as real gun fire , nope , again , not even close.

 

[Ian]

At $2k versus $20k, I think it's a pretty darn good substitute. I don't suppose you would like to give some reason(s) it's not?