Chinese 5.8mm Round

[Timthinker]

Many threads exist here on the M-16, AK-47 and AK-74 rifles. Yet, I know of no threads that discuss Chinese assault rifles or their 5.8x42mm cartridge. So, what are your opinions on the 5.8mm round and the rifles designed for it? I suspect the Chinese are following the trends sent by the U.S. and Russia in adopting a smaller combat round.


Timthinker

 

[max popenker]

in short, there's nothing spectacular with 5.8x42
I hope Tony Williams will chime in with more details, but from what i heard the round is relatively low-pressure, with semi-AP bullet being standard.
The only one notable point about 5.8 is that it looks like PLA wants to use it as the only round for infantry, skipping the full-power 7.62 sniper/GPMG round like 7.62x51 or 7.62x54R with next being 12.7x108 in extra-light HMG's.

Below is the pic of the 5.8x42 (center) compared to 5.56x45 (left) and 5.45x39 (right), and some links to 5.8mm guns in service with PLA and PAP
Type 95 assault rifle
Type 03 assault rifle
Type 88 MG
Type 88 sniper rifle

 

[casio02478]

Wow I did not know you are on this forum Max . I have all your books, when is the next one coming out?

 

[max popenker]

casio02478, our (mine & Tony Williams, who's also resident here ) next book, "The machine gun" was delivered to publisher last week. I hope it will be ready for distribution by summer 2008.

 

[Timthinker]

Max, I appreciate your participation in this particular thread. You are correct that there is nothing special about the 5.8mm cartridge, other than it is ignored largely in discussions on THR. This is why I initiated a discussion about it. I hope others with extensive backgrounds on modern military small arms will express their opinions also. Thanks once again.


Timthinker

 

[HorseSoldier]

You are correct that there is nothing special about the 5.8mm cartridge, other than it is ignored largely in discussions on THR.

I think the relative lack of discussion is simply because I don't think there's anyone who posts here who's had any firsthand experience with the round or weapons chambered for it. (Though I think there was a thread about 5.56mm versions of the Type 95 -- QBZ-97 or 98, something like that -- being available these days in Canada.) That pretty much limits discussion to the pretty limited written information out there, without even rumors or a reputation for good/bad accuracy, good/bad feeding reliability, and all the other issues that people like to debate.

 

[TBeck]

Be careful! I bet the bullets are full of lead!

But seriously, I've never heard of it. Now I have something to Google.

Thanks!

 

[Davo]

Id like to hear more abou this round and the weapons chambered for it.
Perhaps one day it will be cheaper then wolf...

 

[iamkris]

I don't have the issue in front of me (I'm sitting in an aiport lounge workng on my Blackberry) , but didn't David Fortier or Tomothy Yan do a story on the round in Shotgun News? If memory serves, the only 2 notable features of thew round were armor penetration and an early yaw cycle. I remember reading the artile and noting it was clear that China was targetng the cartridge performance to defeat western body armor. then do significant damage to soft tissue.

That said, if you have a small caliber main line cartridge, isn't that what you want it to do? Can anyone validate my memory?

 

[MD_Willington]

Yeah they did a bit on that round in Shotgun news IIRC, it was also in one of the gun rags I used to subscribe to...

 

[Timthinker]

HorseSoldier, since when did speculation, enlightened or otherwise, keep people from posting their views here? Seriously, I am a little surprised that this topic has not been raised in the past, even though there is not a great deal of information on it compared to other cartridges. But you raised a vaild point that the lack of direct experience with this round limits discussion about it. I hope this thread will start to change this omission.


Timthinker

 

[Evil Monkey]

On Sinodefence.com (I think), information about the QJY-88 "GPMG" that uses a heavier loading of the 5,8mm says that the military was totally unsatisfied with the rounds performance at 600+. So now it's being pushed down to a squad automatic weapon. The problem is that for a small caliber SAW, it's quite heavy. More so than the m249.

 

[elmerfudd]

I find it interesting that the PLA seems to be moving to dump the QBZ95 already. My guess is that they found that their soldiers can't deploy it quickly enough due to their small stature and it's very long length of pull. It appears to have a length of pull of around 16". That makes it about 2.5" longer than on an M16A2 for soldiers who stand more than 4" shorter than their American counterparts. Now imagine them wearing body armor and winter clothing and trying to shoulder it quickly to react to incoming fire.

 

[PTK]

Be careful! I bet the bullets are full of lead!

Superb.

Back OT, I haven't heard of this round before, but it sure does seem like a solution that has no problem to solve.

 

[Tony Williams]

For some factual information: the standard 5.8x42 load (used in the assault rifle, carbine and LMG) is a 64 grain bullet at 3,050 fps from the 18 inch barrel of the assault rifle, or 3,180 fps from the LMG's 22 inch bbl (and, for the sake of completeness, 2,590 fps from the carbine's 12.8 incher). In other words, in pretty much the same league as the 5.56mm M855. What is unusual about it is that the bullet is a true hard-steel-core AP type, able to penetrate up to 10mm armour plate at 300m. No doubt something to do with Western body armour...

The long-range heavy bullet loading is used in the GPMG and sniper rifle (it can be used in the other guns, but not too often). It weighs 77 grains and is fired at 2,940 fps from both guns (23-24 inch barrels). It has more lead, less steel than the light load. Incidentally, the heavier bullet protrudes more than in the light load, with an overall cartridge length of 61mm instead of 58mm (cf 5.56x45 = 57mm).

Both rounds are loaded to low pressures by western standards (41,500 psi for the light load) so the round clearly has room for upgrading - but I don't know whether the guns have.