Chinese QBZ-95 service rifle

[JustKen]

It's supposed to be deployed to the front line troops in PLA this year and replace the the type 56 AK that they use now. Or so this website says.

It looks to be a pretty conventional bullpup design but what got me interested is the new caliber of ammo it uses. It shoots a 5.8x42mm/.24 caliber bullet. It’s solid steel with a copper wash. Some reports have the heavy round going through the 1st & 2nd gen SAPI plates like a hot knife through butter. (That's NATO top-of-the-line issue body armor!) Yikes.

Have any of you high-roaders seen or shot one of these? Like to hear your comments.

 

[HorseSoldier]

Given what SAPI plates are rated to stop, I'd be very skeptical of any claim that 5.8x42 can penetrate them.

 

[trueg50]

Not a big deal, it is a PDW if I remember right. Not a very modular built rifle; can't just pull your ACOG off and toss on a red dot/ scope, or weapons lights/lasers.

Isn't this the same bullpup that they withdrew from service and replaced with an AK style rifle due to problems?

 

[LemmyCaution]

Given what SAPI plates are rated to stop, I'd be very skeptical of any claim that 5.8x42 can penetrate them.

Agreed. The heavy ball round is 70gr at 3180fps. I'm very skeptical.

 

[mortablunt]

I'd like to know what it can actually do when given to American testers and scientists rather than what the Chinese claim it can do. It's a cool looking gun and I'd like to get a semiauto of it if I ever can.

 

[C-grunt]

It's supposed to be deployed to the front line troops in PLA this year and replace the the type 56 AK that they use now. Or so this website says.

It looks to be a pretty conventional bullpup design but what got me interested is the new caliber of ammo it uses. It shoots a 5.8x42mm/.24 caliber bullet. It’s solid steel with a copper wash. Some reports have the heavy round going through the 1st & 2nd gen SAPI plates like a hot knife through butter. (That's NATO top-of-the-line issue body armor!) Yikes.

Have any of you high-roaders seen or shot one of these? Like to hear your comments.

Since this is the same organization that got caught using clips from Top Gun while promoting their air force, Im a bit skeptical on the rifle's performance.

 

[Rifleman 173]

A buddy of mine seems to think that the Chinese are planning for something over in Asia. Something really big. He's of the opinion that they're getting ready to fight and understand that they need to have their troops carry large amounts of ammo on them while on foot. Sort of like when they invaded Nepal or Tibet many years ago. He says that's why the Chinese have gone to smaller caliber weaponry with about a 400 yard usable distance. He's guessing that the Chinese are planning to dance with the Vietnamese again and pretty soon. But that's just a guess on his part.

 

[CornCod]

Pardon me for being perhaps a little picky, but the QBZ-95 replaces the Type 81 Rifle and not the Type 56, which was used in much smaller numbers in the Red Chinese Army than a lot of people think.

As for a new war in Asia, I don't think so. Right now, China-Vietnamese relations are the best they have been in a while. Of course, I know that there are ancient hatreds, but China wants to set its economic house in order before doing any major muscle flexing.

 

[JustKen]

pride

I think it's a pride thing. They are doin' just fine with the AK but it's Soviet/Russian origins bother them. They want a distinctly Chinese designed and manufactured rifle for the Chinese army.

Apparently the steel bullets are to be used in some kind of light MG and are not intended to be issued to infantry riflemen although they can use it in pinch.

I predict if they dance with anyone any time soon it'll be with Taiwan.

 

[Murphy4570]

They wouldn't dare touch Formosa (Taiwan). They're still in our sphere of influence, and the Navy's 7th Fleet is still based out of Japan, a very short sail from Taiwan. If the Chinese ever get serious about conquering Taiwan, look for them to build up their navy. That's the tell-tale sign that something's afoot, Watson.

I bet they'll peacefully annex Taiwan back into China proper (likely as a special economic zone, similar to Hong Kong) before they waste their time trying to do an amphibious assault on it, when a fleet of the most powerful navy sailing the seven seas is right next door.

As for their "new" firearm, probably nothing special.

 

[PercyShelley]

If you look at photos of the PLA closely, you'll notice that most of them aren't using type 56 AK clones. They're using type 81 rifles, which look similar but have some refinements internally.

Chinese troops w/ type 81:

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/9490/57271120.jpg

Look at the shape of the receiver cover and the gap between the trigger guard and magazine catch as well as the lack of the big lever-type safety.

Larry Vickers apparently has one in his collection:

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=38119

The bolt is very AK-like, but the design of the top handguard and gas system are more reminiscent of the Czech VZ-58.

As for the QBZ-95:

http://www.cubeupload.com/files/57b017swatandparamilitar.jpg

As you can see, it's a rather FAMAS-y looking affair. Internally it's nothing special, but at the same time it's not a clone of anything Western internally:

http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=81534

As you can see, it's striker fired, uses a two or possibly three lugged bolt. There appears to be a slot for a fixed, blade-style ejector which would more or less preclude switching it to eject left.

The QBZ-95 has actually been around for a while, with the first examples showing up over a decade ago in the PLA's elite formations. Since then a conventionally-arranged rifle using the same magazines and ammo called the QBZ-03 has showed up:

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2008/12/29/qbz-03-chinas-latest-assault-rifle/

as well as some sort of improved QBZ-95 sporting a more ergonomic safety and a new flash hider.

It's not clear if the 03 is supposed to replace the 95, but in light of the appearance of the improved 95 this is probably not the case.

There is also an ultra short carbine version:

http://www.imfdb.org/w/images/thumb/b/b2/Qbz-95carb_s.jpg/400px-Qbz-95carb_s.jpg

as well as a designated marksman rifle and light support weapon variant.

 

[Tirod]

Point being, the AK is being dumped, like almost all other 50 year old wood and steel guns. Another perfect combat weapon relegated to wall hanger status by a new generation with no concept of what it takes to win in battle.











As every generation since before the Krag Jorgensen has opined. No gun is perfect.

 

[JustKen]

Yep.

Yeh Tirerod that's my view as well.

My bad. The qbz series is replacing the AK series is what I should have wrote to fend off the nit pickers and be perfectly accurate about it. Sorry.

The nature of modern war is to always seek cheaper simpler and easier to manufacture small arms. And you get big bonus points if they can be a source of export income.

If I were a Chinese troop I'd want to stay with the AK whatever it's faults are. The AK has won more battles than it's lost and that counts for a lot in the trenches. I suppose that soldiers every where have bitched liked that. I heard that Marines bitched about giving up their sturdy reliable Mod. 1903's for some fancy-schmancy thing called a "Garand". And we've all heard about the gripes over the M-16 replacing the M-14.

I was wondering if anybody fired one of these and how it did. Not expecting much accuracy or ruggedness like with an AK but since I'll never be able to shoot one I was wondering if anybody else had. Just askin'.

 

[PercyShelley]

For a brief period a version of the QBZ-95 in 5.56 was imported into Canada, you might try poking around http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/ to see if anyone managed to get their hands on one before the mounties changed their minds and declared them no longer legal to import.

 

[JustKen]

I guess to be honest if I had a qbz series rifle and a case of ammo for it I'd try two things.

An accuracy test at 10, 20, 50, 100, 200, 300, 350 meter on standard NATO rifle targets and see how it does.

I'd shoot at NATO body armor and ballistic gel and see how it does. Given that it's China (who can mass produce stuff cheaply) I fully expect to see this rifle popping up around the world fairly soon.

 

[SpeedAKL]

How do the ballistics of the 5.8mm line up to heavier 5.56mm NATO rounds like the Mk.262?

 

[PercyShelley]

Depends which load of 5.8x42mm. There are, IIRC, an old ball loading which isn't made anymore, but which probably still exists in old depots, a modern ball loading, and a heavy loading for DMRs and MGs.

The current ball loading is 64 grains @ 3100 FPS while the heavy ball is 77 @ 2950. It's a hair more powerful than 5.56 NATO, but certainly not dramatically more powerful.

 

[Slamfire]

The current ball loading is 64 grains @ 3100 FPS while the heavy ball is 77 @ 2950. It's a hair more powerful than 5.56 NATO, but certainly not dramatically more powerful.

My 11th Edition of Cartridges of the World has a section on this cartridge.

It is closer to a 6 mm than a 5.56. It looks to be very well designed, lots of taper, wider base, thicker rim than the 5.56. The fact it was designed around steel cases instead of brass really shows the Chinese thought about what they are doing. Brass is a strategic material, copper, which is 70% of brass is getting harder to find. Being able to shoot steel cases instead of having to use brass is smart.

Another smart thing is that is operates around 40 Kpsia instead of the 65 Kpsia of the 5.56. Lower pressures are always good. The higher the pressures the more likely things are going to go wrong, especially when it gets hot outside. Keeping breech and port pressures on the low end are good.