ChristopherG
Member
Aha. This, together with your other stated concerns, make the s-2000 a very reasonable choice, in my opinion.
Choosing a Bug out Rifle Keltec 2000 or Marlin .357
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Aha. This, together with your other stated concerns, make the s-2000 a very reasonable choice, in my opinion.
Opflash wrote:
I think I will stick up for the lever carbine here. The added case capacity of the .357 Magnum makes it a far different beast out of a rifle than a pistol. The magnum can be hot rodded by handloaders and specialty factory loaders to .30-30 power levels.
While the style of bullet might still not be ideal to defeat many types of cover or armor, the magnum is going to do far better against targets wearing, say, leather jackets, down parkas, whatever. On its best day, the heaviest thrown slug by a 9mm carbine is still a 147 and flying relatively slow. At its best, the magnum out of a 16-18.5" barrel can throw 158-180 grainers flying anywhere from 1600-2300 fps. Those rounds will still have plenty of steam 100m downrange and though not really suitable for game beyond that distance, will readily wreck a human being beyond that range if the shooter knows what he is doing, having more energy at 200 yards than most 9mm pistol rounds manage at the muzzle. At 150 yards, the drop is a managable -10" more or less, in most of the magnum carbine loads. With a Marbles tang sight installed I have even managed a minute of 8" gong at 200m with five shots as a stunt. Indirect fire with a rifle back in the BP age used to be a skill. Now many regard floating a still lethal bullet out to its max effective killing range as some sort of trick.
It's all in the technique. I think that 100 yards and in, the .357 Mag out of a carbine will defeat most light cover, like a car door or stick built walls, rather readily, and will put on some serious backside deformation on standard armor vests if not power through.
The 9mm only really gains sight radius from being in a carbine.
The "tactical reload" with the lever gun is as old as the weapon. Shoot one, load one. Shoot two, load two. With practice, it is really easy to nail the loading gate with fresh rounds from a belt pouch, but then again, I am left handed and so I get to use the lever as God intended.
You do know that supressive fire in civilian world fire fight is usually a no-no, right? Even in a SHTF situation, your "supressive fire" would be better served to be aimed near misses than spray and pray in the general direction. I am no expert, but even I can get off ten shots from my lever in about three seconds and score hits up to 25m away. I can also reload it at the shoulder without looking. I imagine that if I shot CASS regularly, I would become very polished with the cowboy assault rifle.
With a 9+1 or better capacity, an ability to be topped off on the move, a harder hitting and longer ranged round, and a profile that all but screams "good guy." I'd rather have my Marlin 1894C over any of the other pistol caliber carbines I have seen or fired.
I think I will stick up for the lever carbine here. The added case capacity of the .357 Magnum makes it a far different beast out of a rifle than a pistol. The magnum can be hot rodded by handloaders and specialty factory loaders to .30-30 power levels.
While the style of bullet might still not be ideal to defeat many types of cover or armor, the magnum is going to do far better against targets wearing, say, leather jackets, down parkas, whatever. On its best day, the heaviest thrown slug by a 9mm carbine is still a 147 and flying relatively slow. At its best, the magnum out of a 16-18.5" barrel can throw 158-180 grainers flying anywhere from 1600-2300 fps. Those rounds will still have plenty of steam 100m downrange and though not really suitable for game beyond that distance, will readily wreck a human being beyond that range if the shooter knows what he is doing, having more energy at 200 yards than most 9mm pistol rounds manage at the muzzle. At 150 yards, the drop is a managable -10" more or less, in most of the magnum carbine loads. With a Marbles tang sight installed I have even managed a minute of 8" gong at 200m with five shots as a stunt. Indirect fire with a rifle back in the BP age used to be a skill. Now many regard floating a still lethal bullet out to its max effective killing range as some sort of trick.
It's all in the technique. I think that 100 yards and in, the .357 Mag out of a carbine will defeat most light cover, like a car door or stick built walls, rather readily, and will put on some serious backside deformation on standard armor vests if not power through.
The 9mm only really gains sight radius from being in a carbine.
The "tactical reload" with the lever gun is as old as the weapon. Shoot one, load one. Shoot two, load two. With practice, it is really easy to nail the loading gate with fresh rounds from a belt pouch, but then again, I am left handed and so I get to use the lever as God intended.
You do know that supressive fire in civilian world fire fight is usually a no-no, right? Even in a SHTF situation, your "supressive fire" would be better served to be aimed near misses than spray and pray in the general direction. I am no expert, but even I can get off ten shots from my lever in about three seconds and score hits up to 25m away. I can also reload it at the shoulder without looking. I imagine that if I shot CASS regularly, I would become very polished with the cowboy assault rifle.
With a 9+1 or better capacity, an ability to be topped off on the move, a harder hitting and longer ranged round, and a profile that all but screams "good guy." I'd rather have my Marlin 1894C over any of the other pistol caliber carbines I have seen or fired.
OpFlash
Member
You make some good points, especially the ability to top off on the fly, but that does involve a practiced hand I'm sure and lots of loose rounds handy.
Regarding the power issue, if you are engaging someone in a firefight at 100yds and nail him with anything I'm fairly certain he is going to be thinking about other things from then on, unless you are the one attacking him and he is forced to continue the fight. I believe other than some cover penetration the power of the round is really not that important in this type of defensive scenario (unless he's within 21 ft and rushing you).
And last but not least, and the advantage that I keep coming back to that I think is most important in a bug out scenario, is the Sub gives you a carbine that you can have concealed and on your person and ready to fire in just a couple of seconds.
Regarding the power issue, if you are engaging someone in a firefight at 100yds and nail him with anything I'm fairly certain he is going to be thinking about other things from then on, unless you are the one attacking him and he is forced to continue the fight. I believe other than some cover penetration the power of the round is really not that important in this type of defensive scenario (unless he's within 21 ft and rushing you).
Have you read this whole thread? Did you completely ignore the accuracy, speed of acquisition and recovery time improvements? These things come not just from increased sight radius but the stability of the four point weld. Then there is the 200fps increase.
Pretty good. How many of those actually hit? I would clean your clock in a contest of speed/accuracy at that range with my Sub.
And last but not least, and the advantage that I keep coming back to that I think is most important in a bug out scenario, is the Sub gives you a carbine that you can have concealed and on your person and ready to fire in just a couple of seconds.
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