The KelTec folds up small enough to fit into a laptop case with room for 4, 30 round stick magazines, a Glock 17 or 19 and 5 magazines for the handgun. With an expandable laptop case you can fit a slim laptop and the previously mentioned list.
Choosing a Bug out Rifle Keltec 2000 or Marlin .357
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OpFlash
Member
A common misconception (or insult
, I'm not sure which). There is no comparison between the practical accuracy of the Kel-Tec carbine and a pistol. The four point weld of a carbine allows you to make much faster and more accurate transitions between multiple targets, faster recovery for double taps or rapid fire, and orders of magnitude better long range accuracy. The 200fps advantage over the Glock is also not to be ignored.http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4256258038174570480&q=pistols+at+the+range
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VeTkSYt6KHI
This discussion has been had before in a number of variations. One comment that stands out for me was a comment someone made that they had seen a lever gun jammed so completely it required a gunsmith to fix it.
I tend to agree, a carbine like an AR15 or anything with a magazine and slide is much easier to un-jam in a hurry than a lever gun. I have had a couple of incidents with my 1894C where it required unscrewing the lever to get a cartridge out. I have decided to only shoot .357 through it now, because the 38 specials tended to flop around and get stuck when cycling the lever. And you have to hold the gun right side up when cycling the lever also. If a semi-auto fails to cycle, you can do it manually, but if a lever gun jams, you have a more time-consuming problem.
I tend to agree, a carbine like an AR15 or anything with a magazine and slide is much easier to un-jam in a hurry than a lever gun. I have had a couple of incidents with my 1894C where it required unscrewing the lever to get a cartridge out. I have decided to only shoot .357 through it now, because the 38 specials tended to flop around and get stuck when cycling the lever. And you have to hold the gun right side up when cycling the lever also. If a semi-auto fails to cycle, you can do it manually, but if a lever gun jams, you have a more time-consuming problem.
The Glock fits in a pocket or holster. Practical accuracy is important, of course, but only if you actually have the gun with you. That's why cops carry pistols on their belts, even though they have long guns in the car.
If I'm going to pack a carbine, I'd prefer something that shoots real ammo. A carbine is an offensive-tactics weapon, as you noted. If that's what you have to do, you want more power. If you're using the gun because you're against a wall, a pisol will do. Or a shotgun.
That's what I meant.
In a SHTF situation, whether I'm gathering food or defending the family, I don't think I'd be using .38 Specials in it.
If I'm going to pack a carbine, I'd prefer something that shoots real ammo. A carbine is an offensive-tactics weapon, as you noted. If that's what you have to do, you want more power. If you're using the gun because you're against a wall, a pisol will do. Or a shotgun.
That's what I meant.
In a SHTF situation, whether I'm gathering food or defending the family, I don't think I'd be using .38 Specials in it.
OpFlash
Member
I don't know about you, but if I'm on foot with my family in no man's land and 6-10 thugs come around the corner with an interest in us I'd rather whip out the Sub than a Glock, or the Marlin. High capacity is more important in that situation than a few more FPE, and yes it would be on me, concealed but ready to rock.
ROTFLMAO
If you've ever been hunting on foot, you know that you gotta take a crap sometime, no matter how much of a he-man you think you are with your little 9mm carbine in your hand.
When your pants are down, just be glad you have a pistol you can grab. 3 or 4 inches beats none, even if you wish you had 16".
If I'm going to drag around a full size rifle its going to be an AK or an AR, something more than .357. A pistol is easily concealed. The kel-tec bridges the gap very well IMO. While some may see no reason for the 9mm carbine, I see little reason for the .357 levergun, but then again I have no experience with them at all so..
If the kel-tec didnt fold I wouldnt be too hot on it either, but its tough to argue with a light carbine that takes 33 round mags and 'breaks down' to exactly 16.1 inches.
If the kel-tec didnt fold I wouldnt be too hot on it either, but its tough to argue with a light carbine that takes 33 round mags and 'breaks down' to exactly 16.1 inches.
OpFlash
Member
Not so much the fact that it breaks down, its more the fact that it goes together again in a second!
Sorry to dissapoint AB, but us he-men don't throw away our pistols just because we're carrying a carbine.
Sorry to dissapoint AB, but us he-men don't throw away our pistols just because we're carrying a carbine.
Guess that's what she told you last night huh?
ChristopherG
Member
Customizing the 9x19 for carbines been tried by handloaders on this and other forums, with some limited success. Problem is, the case is so little you can't USE a powder that's all that slow burning; they're just too bulky. By contrast, the .357 case, with its blackpowder heritage (via various .38's forebears), fits a full load of 18 grains of Lil' gun real comfortably under a 158 gr. bullet, and pushes it 2,000 fps.
Even so, and even though I love my Marlin and can make hits with it faster than most (thank you, cowboy action) it gives up too much range and firepower to a Kel-tec--IF that Kel-tec is the SU16 rather than the 2000. 33 rounds of 9mm is nice out to a hundred yards, but 30 rounds of .223 is about 200 yards nicer.
Still folds up, weighs only a little bit more, and is a heck of a lot more gun. Does cost a bit more, but worth it to me.
Even so, and even though I love my Marlin and can make hits with it faster than most (thank you, cowboy action) it gives up too much range and firepower to a Kel-tec--IF that Kel-tec is the SU16 rather than the 2000. 33 rounds of 9mm is nice out to a hundred yards, but 30 rounds of .223 is about 200 yards nicer.
Still folds up, weighs only a little bit more, and is a heck of a lot more gun. Does cost a bit more, but worth it to me.
jagdpanzer347
Member
How about an under-folder AK in a duffel with some loaded mags in a pouch to keep it company? Off topic I know, but still a nice option if you want to be well armed fairly discreetly. Just my two cents.
-jagdpanzer
-jagdpanzer
At 25+ yards I can hit much more accuractly and quickly with the kel-tec than the glock. This is something that will depend more on ones individual skills I guess. Personally I'm not all that amazing of a pistol marksman but give me something I can shoulder and even if its firing a pistol caliber round and limited in range I'll be much more proficient with it.
Harry Paget Flashman
Member
For good or bad I have already made my choice and have the G17 and compatible Sub2000. The advantage of the K-T is that it is semi-auto and therefore easier to keep on target for follow-up shots. And, in a Katrina situation there is a lot less to rust up.
The only problem I've had with the Sub2000 is an occasional FTFeed with the 32 round mags. (Though never in the G17.) Anyway, 17 rounds is a luscious plenty and I have 8 mags.
The only problem I've had with the Sub2000 is an occasional FTFeed with the 32 round mags. (Though never in the G17.) Anyway, 17 rounds is a luscious plenty and I have 8 mags.
Another option
I have several of the Marlins and would not feel undergunned with any of them once they are loaded and, in the SHTF situation, Like Katrina, it would be loaded. That said, there are much better choices available especially when compared to the Kel-Tec. I have heard too much bad about them to trust my life to them. Don't try to change my mind if you are not able to perform a labotomy, it ain't gonna happen. Seriously though, I am a Cowboy at heart and I play one on the weekends. I have always liked the idea of the rifle pistol combo and, since starting CAS, have absolutely become addicted to the idea. I currently have four rifles in 45 colt and 6 pistols in the same. I also love my Glocks and the idea of a rifle that will accept the Glock mags is VERY appealing but the Kel-Tec aint it. Probably the best alternative right now is the Olympic Arms Carbine that takes the Glock Mags. If you can afford to totally revamp you could buy The CX4-Storm and a Berretta 92 pistol in the either 40 or 9. I personally would like to see glock come out with a carbine similar to the the Berretta. I don't (currently)own a mini 14 but, if you had one with a 16'' barrel and a folding stock it would be very compact and they are reliable.
Back to what someone said earlier about the multiple bad guy situation and facing them with the rifle or the pistol. I don't like my chances either way. That aside for the moment, my every day carry gun is a Glock 23 with a 13 rounder and one in the chamber with 2 spare 15 rounders on my person. It will soon be joined by either another G23 or G22, I will probably go with the 23 because of its compactness. I will also be adding +2 extensions to most of my Mags in the near future. In a SHTF situation where you need to maintain concealment, like Katrina, I could get away with wearing both, one on each side, like a cowboy. With 4 or more 17 round mags on my person and 2 15 rounders in the guns +2 in the chambers gives me a total of 100 rounds minimum. Yes I practice with both hands, thats how I shoot Cowboy action so why wouldn't I do it with the guns that I carry for self defense. It also allows me to hand off the extra pistol in the event I feel the need to do so. Honestly though if I am facing multiple bad guys, and I cant turn around and run, which is what I would prefer to do, I would feel much better armed with an 870 or or a Mossberg 590 with a mag extension. Nine rounds of 12 gauge will get anyones attention. I am currently looking at buying or building one or the other and that will be the gun that stays in the truck along with at least one of my pistols. I also own 2 Olympic rifles in 223, a 16 inch carbine with iron sights and a Varmint /Target with 20 inch barrell and Leupold scope. The shorter gun currently rides behind the seat of my pickup.I am considering selling off the Varmint model and getting a more compact carbine for just the things we are talking about. I might get an RRA this time.
I have several of the Marlins and would not feel undergunned with any of them once they are loaded and, in the SHTF situation, Like Katrina, it would be loaded. That said, there are much better choices available especially when compared to the Kel-Tec. I have heard too much bad about them to trust my life to them. Don't try to change my mind if you are not able to perform a labotomy, it ain't gonna happen.
Seriously though, I am a Cowboy at heart and I play one on the weekends. I have always liked the idea of the rifle pistol combo and, since starting CAS, have absolutely become addicted to the idea. I currently have four rifles in 45 colt and 6 pistols in the same. I also love my Glocks and the idea of a rifle that will accept the Glock mags is VERY appealing but the Kel-Tec aint it. Probably the best alternative right now is the Olympic Arms Carbine that takes the Glock Mags. If you can afford to totally revamp you could buy The CX4-Storm and a Berretta 92 pistol in the either 40 or 9. I personally would like to see glock come out with a carbine similar to the the Berretta. I don't (currently)own a mini 14 but, if you had one with a 16'' barrel and a folding stock it would be very compact and they are reliable. Back to what someone said earlier about the multiple bad guy situation and facing them with the rifle or the pistol. I don't like my chances either way. That aside for the moment, my every day carry gun is a Glock 23 with a 13 rounder and one in the chamber with 2 spare 15 rounders on my person. It will soon be joined by either another G23 or G22, I will probably go with the 23 because of its compactness. I will also be adding +2 extensions to most of my Mags in the near future. In a SHTF situation where you need to maintain concealment, like Katrina, I could get away with wearing both, one on each side, like a cowboy. With 4 or more 17 round mags on my person and 2 15 rounders in the guns +2 in the chambers gives me a total of 100 rounds minimum. Yes I practice with both hands, thats how I shoot Cowboy action so why wouldn't I do it with the guns that I carry for self defense. It also allows me to hand off the extra pistol in the event I feel the need to do so. Honestly though if I am facing multiple bad guys, and I cant turn around and run, which is what I would prefer to do, I would feel much better armed with an 870 or or a Mossberg 590 with a mag extension. Nine rounds of 12 gauge will get anyones attention. I am currently looking at buying or building one or the other and that will be the gun that stays in the truck along with at least one of my pistols. I also own 2 Olympic rifles in 223, a 16 inch carbine with iron sights and a Varmint /Target with 20 inch barrell and Leupold scope. The shorter gun currently rides behind the seat of my pickup.I am considering selling off the Varmint model and getting a more compact carbine for just the things we are talking about. I might get an RRA this time.
OpFlash
Member
Even folded the SU-16C is still 10" longer than the Sub, not really a concealable enough size to be carried in an instantly available manner. Otherwise it would be an excellent choice.
CZ223 I'm interested in hearing what you have heard negative about the kel-tec. I've been on several firarms forums including KTrange and KTOG and the vast majority of owners I have heard from love their Sub2000s. The most common negative comment I hear is "it felt cheap" from someone who picked one up in a gun shop but has never owned or shot one. Glocks felt cheap at first too to people that were used to 3lb 1911s and Rugers.
Another thing I'm hearing a lot in this thread is that if you are going to bother with a carbine you need more power than 9mm (which out of a carbine is about the same as .357mag out of a pistol). Why? Consider your likely opponant. Thugs. They are not going to be wearing body armor, and .357 or even .223 is not going to punch through that brick wall they may be taking cover behind while trading shots with you. You'll need to go to a full .308 battle rifle for that.
If you DO get in a gun battle the high capacity of the Sub gives you many more options over the slow firing limited capacity Marlin. You can keep their heads down while you direct your family to safety or manuver yourself. Would kinda suck having to reolad every 6-8 rounds huh? If you think I've got delusions of playing Rambo you're wrong, my first thought would be to disengage and flee, but if they are determined you may have to take the fight to them while your family flees. There are simply so many more options for controlling your opponant(s) with a high capacity firearm, not to mention having it on your person and ready to fire in the first place.
CZ223 I'm interested in hearing what you have heard negative about the kel-tec. I've been on several firarms forums including KTrange and KTOG and the vast majority of owners I have heard from love their Sub2000s. The most common negative comment I hear is "it felt cheap" from someone who picked one up in a gun shop but has never owned or shot one. Glocks felt cheap at first too to people that were used to 3lb 1911s and Rugers.
Another thing I'm hearing a lot in this thread is that if you are going to bother with a carbine you need more power than 9mm (which out of a carbine is about the same as .357mag out of a pistol). Why? Consider your likely opponant. Thugs. They are not going to be wearing body armor, and .357 or even .223 is not going to punch through that brick wall they may be taking cover behind while trading shots with you. You'll need to go to a full .308 battle rifle for that.
If you DO get in a gun battle the high capacity of the Sub gives you many more options over the slow firing limited capacity Marlin. You can keep their heads down while you direct your family to safety or manuver yourself. Would kinda suck having to reolad every 6-8 rounds huh? If you think I've got delusions of playing Rambo you're wrong, my first thought would be to disengage and flee, but if they are determined you may have to take the fight to them while your family flees. There are simply so many more options for controlling your opponant(s) with a high capacity firearm, not to mention having it on your person and ready to fire in the first place.
Is this necessarily true? Pistols in 10mm are blowback. I suppose a stiffer spring is the issue, but with an bigger charging handle, and maybe a LONGER spring, this could be overcome.
If they made them, I would buy one in a heartbeat.
As much as I love the leverguns, the issue of concealability is considerable. That is why I am considering a take-down lever gun conversion for my .45 Trapper.
OpFlash
Member
I think you're mistaken roscoe. Most pistols over .380 caliber are of locked breech design, not blowback.
rangerruck
Member
keltec, hands down. 30 round mags!
OP Flash, as I said in my reply, my knowledge is second hand. One of my friends and one of his friends both bought Kel-Tecs. My friend is what you might call a high volume shooter and his friend is also. Their complaints amounted to failures to feed and the guns wearing quickly. I talked to another guy, the son of a dealer who deals primarily in Mil-Surp and Lower priced stuff, who basically said the same. The rest of my "knowledge" comes from sites like this one. As I said before, I have heard enough bad about them not to trust my life to them. I did handle one and it did feel cheap to me. If it works for you, great. By the way, I am not one of those who mock pistol calibers in carbines , as I said I love em. I also think that the rifle has certain advantanges over the pistol but, I am not so sure that it is any faster up close and personal. It obviously has the advantage at a distance. As to the lever guns, I have to say that we agree on some levels. I said I would not feel undergunned with one of my Marlins as long as it were loaded. I also said that they would not be my first choice. Just to be clear, the capacity of my 20" Marlin is 10 rounds of 45 Colt and I can fit 14 rounds in the 24" guns, I think. If I need more than 14 rounds of 45 Colt, I want something belt fed. To continue this capacity thing for a moment longer, in one of your earlier statements(#31) you mentioned that you would rather have the high capacity of the KEL-Tec over the Marlin or the Glock. Since the Kel-Tec uses Glock Mags my Glock has the same capacity as your Kel-Tec with the right Mag. As far as as the rifle being compact I'm not sure I get it. What is the point here? Is it the size of the case you carry it in? If the defication has impacted with the the rotary oscilator and all I have to protect my self and my family with is a rifle it ain't gonna be in no case. If you must be dicreet and go out in public, such as was the case in New Orleans, carry a handgun or two and plenty of mags. If you feel the need to keep a rifle close at hand then I suspect that a mini-14 or mini 30, or an M1 carbine with folding stock would fit handily into a gym bag and cause no one any concern. Of course I do see the benefit of a compact rifle such as the Mini14 or even the AR with colapsible stock when it comes to carrying it on a sling or while entering and exiting a vehicle. After all of this dicussion I am not sure that AR type pistols might not be a good idea for just this sort of thing.
To continue this capacity thing for a moment longer, in one of your earlier statements(#31) you mentioned that you would rather have the high capacity of the KEL-Tec over the Marlin or the Glock. Since the Kel-Tec uses Glock Mags my Glock has the same capacity as your Kel-Tec with the right Mag. As far as as the rifle being compact I'm not sure I get it. What is the point here? Is it the size of the case you carry it in? If the defication has impacted with the the rotary oscilator and all I have to protect my self and my family with is a rifle it ain't gonna be in no case. If you must be dicreet and go out in public, such as was the case in New Orleans, carry a handgun or two and plenty of mags. If you feel the need to keep a rifle close at hand then I suspect that a mini-14 or mini 30, or an M1 carbine with folding stock would fit handily into a gym bag and cause no one any concern. Of course I do see the benefit of a compact rifle such as the Mini14 or even the AR with colapsible stock when it comes to carrying it on a sling or while entering and exiting a vehicle. After all of this dicussion I am not sure that AR type pistols might not be a good idea for just this sort of thing.de
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Someone mentioned a duffelbag and an Ak. Off topic yes, but food for thought. I made my mind up long ago, that if the SHTF, and I am pushed out of my home, I am leaving with my A2 and lots of full mags. With the stock all the way in, a duffle is do-able. As for LLO confiscating it. One has to make up their mind if they are willing to be disarmed in a hostile enviorment. I am not advocating armed resistance against LE. Just common sense to protect ones self and family when THEY can't. Descreation in movement out in the open is the key, I should think.
I'd chose my Kel-Tec and a bunch of 33 round mags over a lever gun for defensive purposes. I've wanted a pistol caliber lever gun for some time. I actually bought a Winchester 94 in 357, but in my opinion the thing was junk, and unreliable. I'm pretty sure the Marlin would be much better (based on shooting a friends Marlin in 357).
Let me offer some clarification as to why I chose these two rifles. First off I am in NJ, no mags over 15 rounds and no folding stocks on semi automatic rifles. This rifle is not SHTF rifle. I was aiming for something that I can throw in trunk if I had to evacuate in a hurry, so that where ever I wound up I was not completely unarmed. I also spend a lot of time at my in-laws and there are no firearms in their house. Sometimes I feel like bringing something with me for added insurance. The last thing I want is some nosey neighbor wondering why I am always traveling with a rifle case. I would love to legally be able to have an AK or Mini 14 with a folding stock, but I need to keep it legal. The pistol caliber allows me to practice at the range closest to my house. I would rather use a firearm I am familar with than a rifle I only shoot once a year when I get to go to a rifle range. Some real good suggestions, unfortunately I live in a state that cares little for individual rights and moving is not a current option.
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