Chrono'd 10mm, 9mm and 5.56 today! DoubleTap disappointing :(

[alpha6164]

So have been meaning take my G20 to the range for sometime to check some numbers and compare DT to some of the other 10mm i have piled up. I just purchased a nice Chrono at Midway and decided to try it out. Weather was 93deg today so definitely nothing that should limit velocity.


I am just going to list the average of 5 shot string from each load.

DT 135gr = 1463 ft/sec
DT 200gr XTP= 1089 ft/sec
DT 180 XTP = 1211 ft/sec

Win Silvertips 175gr = 1189ft/sec
Federal Hydra 180gr = 1070ft/sec


For comparison i also chrono'd some 9mm and 5.56 rounds and those numbers were right on to where they are supposed to be so it is not a equipment issue..

Out of M&P 9mm compact

Federal HST 147gr = 950 ft/sec
Federal HST 124gr +P= 1135 ft/sec
Ranger T 147gr = 946 ft/sec
Corbon DPX 125gr = 1130


Out of 14.5" barrel Noveske=

Privi M193 55gr = 3042 ft/sec
XM193 55gr = 3056 ft/sec
Brown Bear 62gr = 2780 ft/sec
Silver Bear 62gr = 2777 ft/sec


The DT rounds are significantly slower than "advertised" numbers. I understand that the loads i have are not currently available. Since it looks like DT no longer uses GD or XTP bullets. But i doubt the velocities listed currently should be much different for same bullet weight.

DT shows 1600ft/sec for their 135gr and 1300ft/sec for their 180gr and my numbers are way off. They dont even show the 200gr hollow point anymore. The Win Silvertips peformed basically identical velocity wise compared to the DTs.

Also, any thoughts on the current line up of DT 10mm ammo? Are they still the go to guys for 10mm since they no longer carry the GD or XTP? All inputs appreciated.

 

[wow6599]

I would send an email to Mike McNett with those #'s, as well as what you have left from that lot.
I was getting ready to place a significant order from DT, but I've got to here more on this.
Thinking about how much money I've given DT over the years............

 

[alpha6164]

Well the biggest issue currently from my research is that they dont even use GoldDots or Hornady XTP and use lower quality JHP. On top of that if the chrono doesnt add up what can you say?

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

I have found there are two philosophies with the 10mm and max loads. The first is loading or using loads that don't quite push the limit. They stay within recommended book limits and pressures, and thus don't max out. Double Tap, the original Norma loads, and reloaders "hot" 10mm loadings push the limit, and give that slight margin of the taunted "200gr @ 1200fps" goal. After Norma came out with that stated load, shooters and reloaders have been compromising ever since. You CAN reach it, you CAN exceed it (sometimes), and you can charge up some lighter bullets to other higher velocities that give a stout energy computation. The question is, do you NEED to run it to the max? I have settled for 1280fps with 180XTP's, often in slightly used brass. I can see WHY factory loadings have backed off a bit, and be aware that published loads are often clocked in 6" or longer barrels, not necessarily the standard Glock or Delta Elite length barrels, so you may never get "factory published velocities" from your guns with factory ammo. If you handload max, or use manufacturers that load to max, you run a higher risk of overpressure if the bullets get pushed in a during feeding, or any other negative factor pops up (weakened brass, hot primer, slight overcharge, headspace, etc).

 

[MikePGS]

I'm pretty sure doubletap gives a guide that gives the expected velocities from various barrel lengths.

 

[alpha6164]

^^^Exactly.

DoubleTap caters to the Glock crowd and specifically states those chrono from a Glock 20 and not an extended barrel.

 

[gofastman]

DoubleTap caters to the Glock crowd and specifically states those chrono from a Glock 20 and not an extended barrel.

huh? what's your point?


Id call up the owner of DT and ask for an explanation, all of the products I have gotten from them appear to be top notch.

 

[alpha6164]

^^^My response was to the person that said the stated chrono numbers on DT are most likely not from standard barrels and they must be extended barrels. I replied saying that they specifically state chrono numbers from a Glock 20 and not an extended barrel.


Also "appears" top notch has nothing to do with performance. I have been buying DT based on everybodys recommendation for three years. They all shot find and i had no issues. But so have ammo that cost half. This is the first time that i actually chronod them to see if numbers match what is advertised.

 

[gofastman]

Well the biggest issue currently from my research is that they dont even use GoldDots or Hornady XTP and use lower quality JHP. On top of that if the chrono doesnt add up what can you say?

Brass Jacketed = Golden Saber
Bonded Defense = Gold Dot
Controlled Expansion = XTP

 

[alpha6164]

^^^All other sources say that they stopped using Hornady XTP and their "controlled expansion" is Montana Gold XTP which is NOT Hornady XTP.

 

[wow6599]

Yeah, DT no longer uses Hornady XTP (at least in 10mm). This is straight from their (McNett's) website -

Bullet : 125gr. Barnes TAC-XP
Ballistics : 125gr. @ 1600fps / 710ft/lbs- Glock 20

Bullet : 135gr. Nosler Jacketed Hollow Point.
Ballistics : 1600fps / 767 ft.lbs. - Glock 20

Bullet : 180gr. Nosler JHP
Ballistics : 180gr. @ 1305fps/ 681 ft/lbs- Glock 20

Ballistics : 180gr. @ 1350fps/ 728 ft/lbs- Glock 20
1136fps / 516 ft lbs 100yds Glock 20

Bullet : 200gr FMJ / FP
Ballistics : 1275fps / 722 ft./lbs. - Glock 20

Bullet : 200gr Wide Flat Nose Gas Check Hardcast
Ballistics : 1300fps/ 750 ft./lbs. - Glock 20

Bullet : 230gr Wide Flat Nose Gas Check Hardcast
Ballistics : 1120fps/ 641 ft./lbs. - Glock 20


Numbers don't add up.....do they?

 

[valorius]

Well the biggest issue currently from my research is that they dont even use GoldDots or Hornady XTP and use lower quality JHP. On top of that if the chrono doesnt add up what can you say?

As recently as just a couple months ago DT was using Gold Dots (they call it "bonded defense").

They and buffalo bore both switched to montana gold JHP during the bullet shortage, but they've both been using Gold Dots again for several months now, as far as i know.

OP: How was your "older" ammo stored? That can definitely impact velocity over time. For instance i shot a half dozen Rem Golden Sabers in .380 yesterday, and 3 of the 6 were barely above squib loads, a very mild pop and virtually no recoil at all out of my little LCP.

Also seems to me, based on the chart in the post above mine, that the 135gr velocity listing may be a typo, as it lists the same velocity as the 125gr round does.

 

[gofastman]

If you are firing this 10mm ammo from an autoloader and experience high extreme spreads in velocity, it is not the ammo. Here is why and how to remedy the situation.

Full power 10mm ammo has always generated enough recoil and pressure to require a pretty stiff recoil spring in your handgun - this of course depends on several variables such as your slide weight, etc. When the cartridge fires, it generates enough pressure/recoil to prematurely open your breech face in some guns. When this happens, the opening breech face has an effect on the burn rate of the powder. This can result in some fairly high extreme spreads in velocity. If you are experiencing extreme velocity spreads of more than 50 fps, simply install a stiffer recoil spring. For example, I have an original Colt Delta Elite. This gun with the factory spring runs extreme spreads of about 35fps with both of these 10mm loads. I am happy with 35 fps, so I leave the Delta Elite as is. I also have a custom built Para Ordinance with a Nowlin barrel. It runs extreme spreads of about 70 fps with its original recoil spring. When I install a spring that is 4 lbs stiffer, the extreme spread drops to about 35 fps. The new Glock model 20 comes with a recoil spring that allows the breech face to open too soon and my new Glock model 20 will get extreme spreads of about 100fps with the factory spring installed. When I go to a stiffer recoil spring, the extreme spreads drop to about 50 fps in my new Glock model 20. Of course none of this will be an issue in a revolver. None of this will be an issue in real life either, as these high extreme spreads don't hurt accuracy or function. However, I mention this because if you are like me and want things to be as correct as possible, I have outlined the problem and the solution. The industry fixed all these problems initially, by watering down the 10mm ammo over the last several years. The watered down 10mm ammo does not generate the pressure/recoil to open the breech face early. If you want the full powered 10mm ammo we make, you simply need to tweak your pistol. Or just realize that you are getting some fairly high extreme spreads and ignore it or live with it. It's not hurting any thing in reality

I wonder if there is any truth to this?


alpha6164: thats good to know about the XTP's, kinda dissapointing.

 

[alpha6164]

gofastman,


thanks for that statement from buffalobore.com. I just ordered a Wolff guide rod plus a set of 20, 22, and 24lb recoil springs and will re-chrono same rounds with the different spring weights to see if there is any significant difference.

 

[W.E.G.]

The more spring resistance, the more likely you will get a cycling failure.

That sort of failure is probably OK if all you ever do is stand in a rigid firing position on a square range, and make holes in paper.

That same sort of failure while you are in a dynamic environment could really leave you at a disadvantage.

Something to think about when you start tightening everything up in the quest of some sort of objective benefit.
The subjective comes right around and bites you on your six.

 

[gofastman]

I ordered a ISMI 20# recoil spring just to keep the empty cases within the troposphere. I'm really curious to see what, if anything, you find the 20# set up does for velocity

 

[Peter M. Eick]

Just as a side comment. I have chrono-ed the same run of ammo through many of my 38/44's and found significant variations between guns on speed.

I did not look up the numbers but it was around 150 fps variation between guns made in the 1930's to the 1950's and over the course of 10 or 11 5" 38/44's.

You may just have some slow guns.

I do have a 4" detective special that will go faster then an 8 3/8" Pre-27 with the same ammo. Fathom that one.

 

[PO2Hammer]

I've seen sever threads ands videos with the same results about DT ammo, always far less than advertised.
I think Buffalo Bore is the hottest ammo out there in a variety of calibers.

 

[alpha6164]

Peter,

I am not sure what you mean. The thread states it was shot with a Glock 20. A stock glock 20 is a glock 20. There is nothing "1940s" or "old" about a Glock 20.

 

[Peter M. Eick]

I was just commenting that some guns shoot slow.

I have many of the same particular type of 38/44. Something like 20 odd now and most of them are 5" barrels. One day I went out and chroned nearly every one and I was surprised at how the velocities varied. It was around 150 fps over I think 11 guns.

I was then pointing out that I have a very short barreled 2" revolver that actually chrono's faster then an 8 3/8" barrel version.

My point was fairly simple. Some guns just are fast and some are just slow. The spread is quite big.

 

[CZF]

I'm very happy with my recent God Dot JHP.


The Nosler stuff should work as good as any other JHP..

I like it better than the Golden Saber, and the white box personal defense JHP that some people carry.

The BARNES TAC-XP is a real smoker!


I don't shoot from a bench or have a chrono.

I figure that DT published numbers should be close to what my barrel length is.

Mike is a great guy and has excellent products and customer service.

 

[alpha6164]

^^^I hate to break the bad news to you but those are NOT Gold Dots.

They used to be Gold Dots and label used to say Gold Dots. People at Glocktalk discovered that Mike is now using Montana Gold bullets which are not Speed Gold Dots are much inferior in expansion.

You and many people have been duped into thinking they are getting Gold Dots when they made the switch. Check out this link to see how this round performs. If you dont believe me call DoubleTap and ask they will tell you that they no longer use Gold Dots or Hornady XTPs. The Barnes is obviously Barnes cause it says it on the label but your "Bonded Defense JHP" is not Gold Dots.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsGnDtgVHc0

 

[valorius]

^^^I hate to break the bad news to you but those are NOT Gold Dots.

They used to be Gold Dots and label used to say Gold Dots. People at Glocktalk discovered that Mike is now using Montana Gold bullets which are not Speed Gold Dots are much inferior in expansion.

You and many people have been duped into thinking they are getting Gold Dots when they made the switch. Check out this link to see how this round performs. If you dont believe me call DoubleTap and ask they will tell you that they no longer use Gold Dots or Hornady XTPs. The Barnes is obviously Barnes cause it says it on the label but your "Bonded Defense JHP" is not Gold Dots.

DT is using Barnes solid copper HP's in 115gr. Both DT and Buffalo Bore temporarily used the Montana Gold bullet when Speer stopped selling them GD's. Speer made DT change the name to "Bonded defense."

For a while DT was using a remington JHP in 115gr, but now they seem to have settled on the excellent solid copper Barnes design (at an adv. velocity 70fps higher than the same bullet offered in Corbon's DPX line)

Call them for yourself.

 

[gofastman]

^^^I hate to break the bad news to you but those are NOT Gold Dots.

sure looks like a Gold Dot

From Speer-Bullets.com:

 

[baccusboy]

The DT numbers are way off in Youtube tests I've seen of their 10mm offerings.

Look at the last few seconds of this video to see a very long list of ammo compared on the chronograph. Although DT is near the top with some of its loads, its also way off the mark compared to its claims:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8OeuwEIp9g

Take a gander down the list at their 155gr. Barnes bullet. Claims 1400fps, but actually delivers 1128fps average.

How's that for false advertising?