Churches and "loose" guns...
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Texpatriate
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As a pastor in training (seminary dweeb and pastoral intern) my personal feelings on this are mixed. I personally would prefer that there not be a need for any weapons in the church, but we live in a fallen world where bad stuff happens, even/especially at church. Various church shootings have proven that. Many states have laws explicitly outlawing carry in "houses of worship". I'm no constitutional scholar but this seems like a pretty obvious breech of the establishment clause. The state is pretty much saying that churches cannot decide for themselves whether they want to allow ccw (or even open carry) in their facilities.
If I lived in a state that did not have laws violating the establishment clause concerning ccw- I would have it written into the church bylaws that ccw is permitted on church property, at any church function, by any member in good standing of the church (not under church discipline), or as permitted by the session (sorry, I'm a Presbyterian. elder board, deacons (Baptists), board of trustees, etc.) for non-members on a case-by-case basis. My rationale for this proposed policy is this- I carry in my own home, but I reserve the right to decide who I allow into my home with a firearm. Likewise, this is our church that God has brought us together into as a local body (like a family), we carry in our facility if we are so inclined, but we reserve the right to decide who, other than members of our body, can carry here.
Do I plan to police this in any way through metal detectors, searches, or a sign at the door? No. But that's the policy nonetheless, and it is in the church bylaws for anybody who wants to read them.
As for what your fellow member heard at a conference, I don't really care. It doesn't make any sense whatsoever, and sounds almost exactly like the same kind of drivel as "you are more likely to have your own gun used against you than be able to defend yourself with it" that the Brady campaign constantly mutters to anyone who'll listen. What good is a security team that is unarmed? Are they just supposed to be volunteering to be the first martyrs? If somebody has disabled the guy at the door to the point that they now have his gun, they probably already had a gun to begin with.
If I lived in a state that did not have laws violating the establishment clause concerning ccw- I would have it written into the church bylaws that ccw is permitted on church property, at any church function, by any member in good standing of the church (not under church discipline), or as permitted by the session (sorry, I'm a Presbyterian. elder board, deacons (Baptists), board of trustees, etc.) for non-members on a case-by-case basis. My rationale for this proposed policy is this- I carry in my own home, but I reserve the right to decide who I allow into my home with a firearm. Likewise, this is our church that God has brought us together into as a local body (like a family), we carry in our facility if we are so inclined, but we reserve the right to decide who, other than members of our body, can carry here.
Do I plan to police this in any way through metal detectors, searches, or a sign at the door? No. But that's the policy nonetheless, and it is in the church bylaws for anybody who wants to read them.
As for what your fellow member heard at a conference, I don't really care. It doesn't make any sense whatsoever, and sounds almost exactly like the same kind of drivel as "you are more likely to have your own gun used against you than be able to defend yourself with it" that the Brady campaign constantly mutters to anyone who'll listen. What good is a security team that is unarmed? Are they just supposed to be volunteering to be the first martyrs? If somebody has disabled the guy at the door to the point that they now have his gun, they probably already had a gun to begin with.
After the recent church shootings the pastor and deacons decided to appoint a deacon to be in charge of security and asked him to approach a few members of the church whom he knew had carry permits.
Three or four members were given authority to carry in the church and a retired police officer being of of them, locks all entrances after the services begin except the main entrance. You can leave from the other entrances, you just can't get in except through the main entrance after the service begins.
Three or four members were given authority to carry in the church and a retired police officer being of of them, locks all entrances after the services begin except the main entrance. You can leave from the other entrances, you just can't get in except through the main entrance after the service begins.
The security needs to be outside the church.
Any madman who want to run amok is rather easy
to identify as being on-rage and armed...
So a guard outside the church is sufficient for that scenario.
Someone entering service with a CCW is unstoppable.
(If the paranoia becomes stronger than the belief,
i think it´s time to meet at a gun-range on sundays.)
Any madman who want to run amok is rather easy
to identify as being on-rage and armed...
So a guard outside the church is sufficient for that scenario.
Someone entering service with a CCW is unstoppable.
(If the paranoia becomes stronger than the belief,
i think it´s time to meet at a gun-range on sundays.)
Duke of Doubt
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Mp 7: "The security needs to be outside the church. Any madman who want to run amok is rather easy to identify as being on-rage and armed..."
I don't know; Secret Service missed Hinckley, Fromme, Bremer, Oswald, Czolgosz, Guiteau, and Booth. Zero for seven.
I don't know; Secret Service missed Hinckley, Fromme, Bremer, Oswald, Czolgosz, Guiteau, and Booth. Zero for seven.
I think that Texpatriate's suggestion that Leadership should be the ones deciding if the church should be armed.
In any church people are not going to always come to an agreement on all things, and protecting the Church with force (guns, even if they are concealed) is likely to be a hot topic.
There is no reason to unnecessarily alarm people by having a public discussion. If you don't trust the leadership in your church then perhaps you are in the wrong church.
In any church people are not going to always come to an agreement on all things, and protecting the Church with force (guns, even if they are concealed) is likely to be a hot topic.
There is no reason to unnecessarily alarm people by having a public discussion. If you don't trust the leadership in your church then perhaps you are in the wrong church.
Duke of Doubt
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Mp 7: "You have to decide... do u wanna go to church on sundays,
or take an armed convoy to the "Green-Zone" whenever you
feel like attending a service."
No need for a convoy. I carry concealed.
or take an armed convoy to the "Green-Zone" whenever you
feel like attending a service."
No need for a convoy. I carry concealed.
I agree. One guy outside looking for mad men is no sure thing. The fact remains no one can be everywhere and protect everyone all the time, and people can be sneaky. Personal responsibility is best (everyone has a gun), otherwise a few volunteers will have to do. Nothing wrong with a guy at each door imo.
Hungry Seagull
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I wish to defuse this a little referring to a Arnie film with the big church filled with a congregation armed to the teeth around a casket.
=) I wish I can remember the title to that film but I refer to that as a rather extreme situation.
=) I wish I can remember the title to that film but I refer to that as a rather extreme situation.
Duke of Doubt
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Wasn't that "True Lies"?
larry_minn
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Lots of sheep in a church. (they don't call Jesus "the good shepperd" for nothing) 
Most will say 'We don't want any guns in church" as a knee jerk reaction. They have been "educated" by mass media/anti gun groups.
Honestly I don't normally carry in church. But I would be upset if I was not allowed.
Most will say 'We don't want any guns in church" as a knee jerk reaction. They have been "educated" by mass media/anti gun groups.Honestly I don't normally carry in church. But I would be upset if I was not allowed.
Marvin KNox
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I attend a very large "mega" church. So many of us ended up meeting at the firing range that we thought that perhaps something official would be good for our church.
We have a dozen or so men who have gone through official training as armed body guards as a result of our deliberations.
I personally know of several more who are armed at any given time.
Don't ask - don't tell! That's also very true in concealed carry issues.
In reply to whether people need to carry in church if they are licensed - I'd say that that is the MOST likely place for the average carry guy to end up needing his weapon. At least when we are talking about very large and prominent churches like my own.
We have a dozen or so men who have gone through official training as armed body guards as a result of our deliberations.
I personally know of several more who are armed at any given time.
Don't ask - don't tell! That's also very true in concealed carry issues.
In reply to whether people need to carry in church if they are licensed - I'd say that that is the MOST likely place for the average carry guy to end up needing his weapon. At least when we are talking about very large and prominent churches like my own.
daveit
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If God doesn't want you to carry in church he'll probably strike you down with lighting or something on the way there.
preachnhunt
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Some of you seem to think "church leadership" has the answers. In my 1/4+ century as a pastor I have observed that throughout history "church leaders" are at least as big a threat as anyone else due to internal conflicts. (Judas was the treasurer!)
As I've said before the only thing any church board in most churches is likely to do is form a committee to study the situation and bore the BG into submission. If you choose to carry in church so be it. Your rights don't stop at the church door.
As I've said before the only thing any church board in most churches is likely to do is form a committee to study the situation and bore the BG into submission. If you choose to carry in church so be it. Your rights don't stop at the church door.
DCortez
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There was a church shooting today in Illinois. From what I know atm, 5 shot, 1 dead.
2TransAms
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That was very close to my home, and at a church I used to attend, First Baptist of Maryville. Not many details, but the pastor has died. A young man in a hoodie walked up to the pulpit, the pastor asked if he needed help with something, and he opened fire. That's all I know.
Hungry Seagull
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That's too bad.
It should spark something towards CCW's for the Illinois folks.
The day Churches become airport security scanning everyone down to the atomic level is the day that no one will attend. But stay home and watch it on TV.
It should spark something towards CCW's for the Illinois folks.
The day Churches become airport security scanning everyone down to the atomic level is the day that no one will attend. But stay home and watch it on TV.
2TransAms
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In IL, it will probably spark more gun control.
Hungry Seagull
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They are already pretty harsh on gun control. That still did not stop a person from getting into a building full of People and taking down the Pastor.
The only thing that will stop this will be a armed church that knows how to react WHEN this sort of thing happens again in the future. WHEN, NOT IF.
The only thing that will stop this will be a armed church that knows how to react WHEN this sort of thing happens again in the future. WHEN, NOT IF.
Hungry Seagull
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I dont know about you Folks, but anytime some one gets up or moves towards the Pastor during a Service really puts me on alert. Particularly in a Sanctuary that is USUALLY cheographed and scheduled down to the minute for the entire service. Spontaneous behavior is a big red flag or clanging fire bell.
Maybe I should stay home, take medication and watch services on tv.
Maybe I should stay home, take medication and watch services on tv.
stonecutter2
Member
Thank God this idiot's pistol jammed (that's what CNN says). Who knows how many more people could have been killed. Apparently he pulled a knife and started stabbing himself...and parishioners tackled him. If someone could have legally carried, maybe that pastor would still be alive...or less people would be wounded.
I guess I'm pretty frustrated that idiots like this come along just as sensible firearm legislation is being considered. Obviously this moron didn't give a rat's behind about IL gun laws before shooting up a church...but those law abiding citizens who follow the law were defenseless against this criminal. The fact that this somehow gets twisted into an argument for MORE gun control makes me so aggravated.
I'm just going to pray that those individuals who were injured are going to be okay...and pray that IL comes to it's senses that citizens need a way to defend themselves against these criminals.
I guess I'm pretty frustrated that idiots like this come along just as sensible firearm legislation is being considered. Obviously this moron didn't give a rat's behind about IL gun laws before shooting up a church...but those law abiding citizens who follow the law were defenseless against this criminal. The fact that this somehow gets twisted into an argument for MORE gun control makes me so aggravated.
I'm just going to pray that those individuals who were injured are going to be okay...and pray that IL comes to it's senses that citizens need a way to defend themselves against these criminals.
2TransAms
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A few months ago, a young man came in shortly after service started and sat right in the front. He had baggy pants and a large sports jersey and kept looking back very nervously. I always sit in the very back with a clear view of all the doors, but I nodded to one of the other men and he moved to sit a few rows behind the young man. I went downstairs with another man to check for other visitors. As soon as services were over he walked out without a word. Very odd behavior, and thankfully nothing happened.
Short of metal detectors, it's almost impossible to keep someone from bringing in a gun and doing harm, but some of the men and I have at least somewhat of a preventative plan which includes our seating locations, giving us an ability to act fairly quickly should something happen.
Short of metal detectors, it's almost impossible to keep someone from bringing in a gun and doing harm, but some of the men and I have at least somewhat of a preventative plan which includes our seating locations, giving us an ability to act fairly quickly should something happen.
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