Circle of Death?

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I was telling my wife about the alleged 21 foot circle I heard about somewhen wherein a knife-wielder is lethal to a gun-toter if the latter doesn't have the gun out yet and then compounds by not moving to create space. She snorted about the distance that would have to be covered without being shot.

Does the "circle of death" exist or is this a gunny urban legend?
 
21 feet is the accepted range for someone with a knife to be lethal. You can cover it in about 1.5 to 2 seconds, the time it takes for a draw. But if you see someone with a knife out, you are in danger anyway.
 
Does the "circle of death" exist or is this a gunny urban legend?
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Take her to the range, and perform the following drill.


http://www.kuci.uci.edu/~dany/firearms/all_drills.html#drills


Tueller Drill (after Sgt. Dennis Tueller)

Teaches: speed draw and fire under stress.
Requires: three people, or two people and a timer.

The Tueller drill is essentially an exercise, under stress, to measure your draw and first shot in terms of distance rather than time. The area that a charging assailant is able to cover in the time it takes you to draw and fire gives you a good idea of what a "safe distance" threshold is.

At the time of the original drill, Gunsite expected a 1.5 second par time for drawing from concealment and firing two shots at a 3-yard target. Tueller found that the average distance an assailant could travel in 1.5 seconds, starting from standing still, was about 21 feet. Any closer, and the assailant might start grappling before the shot can go off.

There have been many arrangements of the Tueller drill. The simplest is to have the "assailant" start back-to-back with the shooter. At the signal, the runner runs and the shooter draws and fires at a 3-yard IPSC target. At the sound of the shot, the runner stops and the distance is measured. If the shot was good (A-zone), the distance counts as the shooter's "score."

A more stressful variation is to have the assailant begin 21 feet away from the shooter, parallel to the firing line. At the signal, the assailant runs toward the shooter and tries to touch her (gently!) on the back as he passes. This is a pass/fail variation.

With ASP Red Guns (plastic guns that are holsterable and drawable), the drill can become a full-contact exercise, with the assailant charging directly at the shooter.

Variations: A useful variation is to have the shooter sidestep while drawing and firing. Moving to the assailant's 45 degree area throws the charger off balance as he/she attempts to correct and gives the shooter significantly more time to draw and fire. The shooter is also out of the line of attack in the probable event that the shots don't stop instantaneously.
 
Yes Virginia...

There is a "Circle of Death."

I remember it as 24' rather than 21' but mox nix. The first time I saw this material was when I was a Correctional Officer and we viewed a video titles, "Surviving Edged Weapons Attacks."

The video presented a number of engagement scenarios that were intended to demonstrate the distance required to safely engage a knife wielder. The distance the producers arived at was the average distance that an attacker could cover before you could draw, aim, and fire.

Respecfully,
 
Well, I've done the Tueller drill using airsoft in FOF training. We drew as soon as our attacker started towards us.

I never had a problem getting 3-4 good hits before the guy got within arms length. This was with me just taking one step to the side.

When I started really moving, I could dump the whole mag (25ish lil beans) on him and he never touched me, but he got really angry :) .

Similar results happened when it was my turn to chase him down. Every once and awhile someone would bobble the draw and miss and then get marked (we were using harpies for knives) without shooting their assailant, but typically the knifers all got waxed.

BTW, all of us are pretty fit so we were moving about as quick as can be reasonably expected, unless Carl Lewis was gonna cut ya.

:D
 
I learned it as 7 yds (sorta, kinda close to 21 feet, isn't it??),

and the 1.5 - 2 seconds is also what I remember.

Just carry cocked and locked in your hand, and you will be always be ready,

but you might not make too many new friends :D !
 
Never heard it referred to as the Circle of Death, but that does sound more excitng than the "21-Foot Rule" as it is commonly referred to.

Many shooters can make a good showing when they know they are going to be "attacked" as the action/reaction time is shortened. People working off an audible, i.e. a whistle or "GO!" command has been shown to also cut the reaction time as opposed to when the aggressor moves with no warning.

Training on a nice flat static range is one thing, but it's a whole different animal when you're leaving a "secure" area, your magnum super blaster is concealed, and you're caught flat-footed. Therefore, in the real world, many SOPs are now calling for 30 feet instead of 21.

Denny
 
Remember that someone you just shot can still stick his knife into your chest before he expires.

Within 7-yards, the knife has it's advantages.

In two seconds, a very well-trained gunman can draw & put 3 into his opponent.

The very well-trainer blade fighter can make 10 vital strikes in the same 2 seconds.
 
It's very possible to "beat" the Tueller drill but actually totally stopping an attacker probably won't happen in that distance. It might but it might not. Unless you totally shut down the guy, he's probably still going to get you. HIS attack might not be fatal, either, but he might very well get you even if he's full of holes.
 
Many shooters can make a good showing when they know they are going to be "attacked" as the action/reaction time is shortened. People working off an audible, i.e. a whistle or "GO!" command has been shown to also cut the reaction time as opposed to when the aggressor moves with no warning.

Training on a nice flat static range is one thing, but it's a whole different animal when you're leaving a "secure" area, your magnum super blaster is concealed, and you're caught flat-footed. Therefore, in the real world, many SOPs are now calling for 30 feet instead of 21.
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Copy that. Thats why we did FOF, to more closely simulate 'actual' conditions.

As I understand it tho, the 21ft rule doesn't especially apply to ambushes, 'cause when you're busted like that it doesn't really matter where they are. It was more of a guide for officers to learn to keep their distance from guys they knew might get a lil buggy.

Within 7-yards, the knife has it's advantages.

In two seconds, a very well-trained gunman can draw & put 3 into his opponent.

The very well-trainer blade fighter can make 10 vital strikes in the same 2 seconds.
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I don't necessarily agree with this...

If we're talking 'trained' people, the shooter isn't just gonna stand there. Also, the knife-guy has to CLOSE before he can attack, so 10 vital strikes seems a bit much :p . And just like hitting a moving target is harder with a gun, so it is with a knife.

It's very possible to "beat" the Tueller drill but actually totally stopping an attacker probably won't happen in that distance. It might but it might not. Unless you totally shut down the guy, he's probably still going to get you. HIS attack might not be fatal, either, but he might very well get you even if he's full of holes.
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This is true. We know that HG fire isn't usually an immediate stopper. Even a totally destroyed pump with still give the guy a good 10-30 sec, which is a long time. Of course, the same is true for a blade.

A principle that comes into play here is that of the 'intercepting' blow. I imagine that shooting someone whoe's rushing you will take a bit of their juice; dull their attack so to speak. I can't be sure since I've never shot anyone, but it seems reasonable; it works in fistfights. So, theoretically, once you've dumped a couple into the BG he should be easier for you to handle. Of course, there will be exceptions to this, possibly more exceptions than not depending on the quality of your hits and the state of 'mind' of your attacker.

I don't want you guys to get the idea that I think knives are to be scoffed at. On the contrary, I've been stabbed (in a fist fight) and I'm consequently deathly afraid of them. It hurts like the beejeezus :) (tho not until later).

I just think alot of people toss around the '21ft rule' without having really checked it out for themselves, so I wanted to share my experiences. Having checked it out, I feel alot better about dealing with people out there.

The real problems tho, are the ones where the BG is only 5ft away. No way to beat that one on the draw :( . Gotta get cut and just hope you can beat him off to make some room to shoot him in.

:uhoh:
 
Yea, the Tueller drill is real. The invoice for the book I read on this subject is in my safe, as proof that I knew about the drill before I am involved in a self-defence shooting where the target is 21 or more feet away.

Some legal advice book I read mentioned that since the Tueller Drill is not 'common' knowledge, you as the defendant cannot introduce it as part of your defense, unless you can prove to the court that you knew about the drill before hand.
 
While delivering knives to the store/range I support I had a "debate" with an LEO coming out of the range about the factual accuracy of the knife vs gun rules. The individual in question adamently swore that all of the videos and training material was "staged" to make the knife appear to be a greater threat than it actually was and that he was confident that he could draw and fire before the knife could be used against him. (I am paraphrasing the conversation to clean it up.) His partner kept silent, but nodded when I cautioned that the information was correct and that from an equal starting point (weapons not in hand) the guy with the knife would initiate and act while the person with the gun would have to react and probably be gravely injured before stopping the knife attack. The LEO became more insistant that he could handle the problem before he could be touched. I offered to let him participate in a demonstration and call the start of it as well. He adamently insisted that he could stop me before I could reach him (I'll shoot you in the haid before you get anywhere close!!). I verified that he and his partner had complied with range rules and come into the shop from the range with weapons locked open and magazines and asked him to demonstrate that his weapon was unloaded and no mag in it to holster to begin the "exercise". After this I called "GO!", closed the 20 feet to 10 feet and left my pocket knife open in the air to fall to the floor without stopping and closed the remaining distance and trapped the LOE's weapon hand and weapon still in the holster with gentle pressure to the back of his hand with my off hand. I simulated 2 cuts to the weapon arm, 2 to the left side of the throat, and 3 thrusts to the chest and solar plexus with the fingers of my right hand. The officer did not draw his sidearm until I took my off hand off of his and stepped back with both hands held at head level with fingers spread. His partner grabbed him by the arm (his partner had taken one step back and to the side as I "attacked") and said, "That boy just saved your life, you better listen to him." I picked up my knife, closed it and went back to what I was doing.

The distance was reasonable, starting from both knife and sidearm out of hand was typical, the agitated and aware state of the LEO was reasonable, having the person with the knife initiate the attack was too. I expected there to be much more trouble keeping the LEO's handgun from being brought to bear, but did expect to be able to simulate serious, if not lethal, injuries before being "shot". The LEO was aggresively confident that I would not reach him nor touch him. His partner was not as certain. I hope that he developed a greater sense of caution and greater respect for the training provided.
 
On the contrary, I've been stabbed (in a fist fight)
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I don't mean to alarm you, sir, but that might not have been a fistfight! :uhoh:


On the "Circle of Death" issue, people will probably tend to take it less seriously if you call it the "Circle of Death."
 
Don,

:D

Yeah, I wish I'd known that earlier than I did. Still, all it was for me was a brawl, cause I didn't even know the guy had a knife (much less that I'd been poked) until it was over.

My first thought was that I'd pissed myself :rolleyes: . I was totally embarassed; then I realized what happened and almost fainted. I have a real needle phobia BTW. I think the only thing that kept me upright was adrenaline.

Anyway, it turned out to be fairly minor (no cholostomy bag, whew, but plenty of stitches; did I mention my fear of needles?) but painful. Right on my waistline so turning, getting up, reaching, yadda yadda yadda.
 
hso: Surprising the number of people that won't test their opinions :)

I've always thought the point of the Tueller drill was that you need to have weapon in hand if they are inside 21 feet, or you will have to use alternative force to buy time to draw and shoot.

There is a big difference in reation time when waiting for partner in drill to start an "attack" so you can start the draw vs being SURPRISED because goblin starts moving towards you.

Specially if your somewhere you can't move off the line of attack.
 
I'd posted this in an older thread. Rereading "How Close..." I realized how little information was actually put out in the article. Dennis didn't have the answer, but he asked the question and it's always tougher to come up with the questions in the first place.
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The Tueller Drill is named after Dennis Tueller, a Salt Lake City cop and Gunsite instructor. Dennis wrote an article entitled "How Close Is To Close?" which appeared in SWAT magazine back in 1983. The gist of the article was that someone with a knife was a lethal threat even though they were 21-feet away from the gun armed goodguy. There are many variations on the Tueller Drill. A basic livefire version has the bad guy start back to back with the good guy. On the start signal, the bad guy runs away from the good guy, who draws and fires downrange. The bad guy stops when the good guy fires. Measure the distance covered. That serves as a benchmark on how far away someone with a contact weapon could be for that shooter to be able to successfully draw and shoot. Another version, done with dummy gun and rubber knife, has the bad guy start 21-feet away from, and facing the good guy. On the start signal, BG rushes GG attempting to cut him. Another version, BG starts on his own signal, forcing GG to react to BGs action. The purpose of the drill is to help gun people begin to understand the proxemics of encounters. This is something that martial artists tend to have a much better grasp of than do people who do not have a martial arts background.
 
Heh. I've been rushing LE students with an ASP rubber knife for a long time and the only simulated pistol hits I've taken so far have been to my off paw.

The key is to think like a critter when you do it and to train realistically.

In other words, if a critter has ever given warning that he will draw a knife and rush you in the next ten minutes, then train that way.

Around here our critters aren't courteous enough to give us advanced warning, so we throw the 'rush-and-knife' at random into other drills.

If I catch a trainee in the middle of a long verbal sentence when he's thinking about how to say what he's going to say next, I'll draw an ASP red knife and rush him. Usually I'm up under his hat with him by the time he gets a firm grip on his sidearm.

It's even better if he allows me to wander a bit until his weak side is three or four feet away from his car, or a tree, park bench, wall or somesuch. When that happens, I'll rush. Eight times out of ten the ones who leap out of the line of attack bounce off of the obstacle and back into the line of attack just in time for me to plough them into the gravel. :evil:

Training is a dirty job, but someone's gotta do it. :D

LawDog
 
LawDog I think they need more trainers like you. I can count on one hand the number of LEO that I have seen that pay attention to how close people get to them (when they are just in uniform standing around). Most of them will let people get within range to grab their handgun without even knowing someone is close.
 
Some legal advice book I read mentioned that since the Tueller Drill is not 'common' knowledge, you as the defendant cannot introduce it as part of your defense, unless you can prove to the court that you knew about the drill before hand.
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Thanks for this information. Does posting on this thread count?
 
If you're talking to a skeptic, as the original poster was, perhaps it would be better to dispense with the melodramatic "circle of death" phrase, and instead of saying 21 feet, say 7 yards or 7 steps. Seven steps is best. That sounds close.
 
Hey, I'm not saying that a blade fighter is gonna score all 10 hits in 2-seconds, like a gunner probably isn't gonna make all 2-3 shots in the same time. If you want to play the odds, which one would you choose?

In live fire drills I've participated in, we lined up on the 7 yard line and did holster drills while a trainer stood 5 yards off to the side at the target line (yes he was lined up with the targets but not in the direct line of live fire), every once in a while, he'd make a sudden charge toward our line and we were supposed to respond by shooting up our paper targets, but he would usually reach our line before anyone had a chance to draw and fire, best would be only one shot. Once, we had a guy in an ankle cast do teh sudden rush on the live fire range, and it was still hard to respond to his sudden charges.

Remember that some of those BGs you may encounter on the streets are gonna be younger than you and possibly on drugs. A 17 year-old on a weeklong meth binge is gonna be fast, dangerous and impervious to pain.
 
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