Circuit Judge Carbine for Home Defense

[Vern Humphrey]

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Just for speculation, not knowing laws against such. It’s down fall for shot gun use is the rifling in the bore. It’s too shallow, the rifling, is be fully effective on bullets, hence its diminished accuracy with metallic cartridges. But enough to impart spin on the shot cup of the 410 load of buckshot.

Could the barrel be reamed smooth or smoother to improve the grouping of shot. I mean if one really wanted a revolver 410 shotgun.

A smooth reamed barrel could be judged a sawed-off shotgun. I remember there was a fad years ago for converting M1917 revolvers to use shot, and someone was reaming out the rifling and ATF came down on him.

 

[whughett]

A smooth reamed barrel could be judged a sawed-off shotgun. I remember there was a fad years ago for converting M1917 revolvers to use shot, and someone was reaming out the rifling and ATF came down on him.

That carbine has an 18 1/2 “ barrel. What’s the shortest on a sawed off shotgun allowed, they, sawed off shot guns, also have to be a minimum by over all length also don’t they.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

That carbine has an 18 1/2 “ barrel. What’s the shortest on a sawed off shotgun allowed, they, sawed off shot guns, also have to be a minimum by over all length also don’t they.

If it has an 18 1/2" barrel, it should be okay -- but there may be a prohibition on converting a rifle to a shotgun.

 

[MG77]

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Just for speculation, not knowing laws against such. It’s down fall for shot gun use is the rifling in the bore. It’s too shallow, the rifling, is be fully effective on bullets, hence its diminished accuracy with metallic cartridges. But enough to impart spin on the shot cup of the 410 load of buckshot.

Could the barrel be reamed smooth or smoother to improve the grouping of shot. I mean if one really wanted a revolver 410 shotgun.

I don’t think it would be legal to modify the bore to a smooth bore. The rifling is what classifies it as a rifle. Modifying it to be a smooth bore revolving cylinder shotgun would make it an illegal firearm “Street sweeper”.

The original post specified the choke that is unique to the Circuit Judge that stops the shot from spinning. At home defense distances, I’ve found the patterns of buckshot to be adequate.

 

[MG77]

I can see how the Circuit Judge (CJ) would work in a short range scenario inside one's home. Outside the house, much less so.

If one can't have or doesn't want an autoloader, the CJ certainly offers ease of use with a simple pull of the trigger to cycle the action. Should be fast between shots, easy to shoot from either shoulder with less training, and capable of one handed repeat shots, too.

What's interesting to me at the moment is that smoothbore Landor Arms that @KevininPa has. It should have the greater inherent accuracy of a barrel designed for shotshells and slugs.

EDIT: Removed erroneous info about the CJ's barrel length.

To add to that, I think the revolver is inherently more reliable than an auto-loader as well.

The Landor Arms shotgun is interesting. I haven’t seen that before. If it’s a smooth bore though, I don’t think it’s legal here. Watch out for that.

I like the picatinny rail on the CJ too.

 

[MG77]

Or as I said when the original Judge came out, a bad idea, poorly executed.

My 12-ga Ithaca with the 20" barrel and the magazine plug removed is a much better defensive weapon.

I understand there are more powerful shotgun options available. But for something that is effective, extremely reliable, extremely simple, less chance of over penetration, extremely light and maneuverable, low recoil, fast follow up shots, I think this lends itself well to that as a great option. Pointing out that this may not be for everyone, but if you’re looking for the above advantages, it’s a mistake to overlook it. And many people mistook this as the handgun version. It’s very different lol.

Thanks for the input!

 

[chicharrones]

To add to that, I think the revolver is inherently more reliable than an auto-loader as well.

The Landor Arms shotgun is interesting. I haven’t seen that before. If it’s a smooth bore though, I don’t think it’s legal here. Watch out for that.

Since the Landor is sold as a shotgun from the get-go, it should be legal in the USA. @KevininPa says he has one and I assume Pa means Pennsylvania.

 

[DocRock]

I understand there are more powerful shotgun options available. But for something that is effective, extremely reliable, extremely simple, less chance of over penetration, extremely light and maneuverable, low recoil, fast follow up shots, I think this lends itself well to that as a great option. Pointing out that this may not be for everyone, but if you’re looking for the above advantages, it’s a mistake to overlook it. And many people mistook this as the handgun version. It’s very different lol.

Thanks for the input!

Which is more powerful?

- A .330” lead ball at 1200 FPS, or a .330” lead ball at 1200 FPS ?


A 00 buck ball delivered at 1200 FPS, whether from a .410 barrel or a .725 barrel is equally powerful. And in either case, extensive studies show that such a ball is likely to penetrate outside walls of houses, let alone inside drywall.

A 410 delivers a lesser payload, but is not less powerful. Any concerns one has about overpenetration by 00 buck are equally true, regardless of gauge. The .410 will deliver a lesser payload, substantially fewer balls than a 12 ga, for example. That is not something one generally desires in a home defense weapon.

The balance between “enough” penetration and “not enough” seems to, albeit arguably, rest at #4 buck.

3” .410 Federal Premium #4 buck delivers 9 pellets. Federal Premium 12 ga 2.75” delivers 34 pellets of #4 buck. Let’s assume a nominal 1200 FPS for both.

Equally powerful. But the 12 ga delivers almost 3 times the payload of projectiles. And the lightly rifled barrel of the Circuit Judge is not contributing to a a better pattern.

You may use what you wish for home defense. You may hold whatever opinion you like about what constitutes “enough” for home defense. But the facts are just that: facts. The .410 delivers a substantially smaller payload. The contents of that payload, if launched at the same velocity as that of a 12ga , are equally powerful, just less dense.

It is my opinion, that less payload and less density are not a desirable qualities in a home defense shotgun...

 

[MG77]

It’s still neither fish nor fowl, nor master of much. 410 is unnecessarily small for home defense and the Judge, with its shallow grooves to mitigate the rifling effect on shot patterns, which are nevertheless not as good as from a smoothbore, is necessarily less accurate than a barrel with proper grooves.

A firearm that was originally designed to meet the oddities of Brazilian gun legislation and specifically stymie car jackers, then further modified to meet the oddities of US gun legislation, then turned into a rifle, makes for an interesting oddity itself. But not an oddity that I would trust with my life and lives of my family.

Happily, different strokes for different folks. Here’s hoping you never have to use it in a home defense role but that, if you do, it performs flawlessly.

Thanks!
I actually think in this particular niche for home defense shotguns, I think it is a master of simplicity, extreme reliability, maneuverability, follow-up shots, controlled recoil, etc. I just think there are intrinsic advantages to it.

To your point about the shallow rifling, if we are talking about using shot shells, the straight rifle choke that comes with the firearm does a good job of stopping the shot from spinning. For home defense distances, the patterns are adequate.

 

[MG77]

Which is more powerful?

- A .330” lead ball at 1200 FPS, or a .330” lead ball at 1200 FPS ?


A 00 buck ball delivered at 1200 FPS, whether from a .410 barrel or a .725 barrel is equally powerful. And in either case, extensive studies show that such a ball is likely to penetrate outside walls of houses, let alone inside drywall.

A 410 delivers a lesser payload, but is not less powerful. Any concerns one has about overpenetration by 00 buck are equally true, regardless of gauge. The .410 will deliver a lesser payload, substantially fewer balls than a 12 ga, for example. That is not something one generally desires in a home defense weapon.

The balance between “enough” penetration and “not enough” seems to, albeit arguably, rest at #4 buck.

3” .410 Federal Premium #4 buck delivers 9 pellets. Federal Premium 12 ga 2.75” delivers 34 pellets of #4 buck. Let’s assume a nominal 1200 FPS for both.

Equally powerful. But the 12 ga delivers almost 3 times the payload of projectiles. And the lightly rifled barrel of the Circuit Judge is not contributing to a a better pattern.

You may use what you wish for home defense. You may hold whatever opinion you like about what constitutes “enough” for home defense. But the facts are just that: facts. The .410 delivers a substantially smaller payload. The contents of that payload, if launched at the same velocity as that of a 12ga , are equally powerful, just less dense.

It is my opinion, that less payload and less density are not a desirable qualities in a home defense shotgun...

DocRock,

Thanks for the response. The pellet size for 00 or 000 may be the same, but there is fewer shot and far less powder in a 410 shell. The velocities for 410 are much lower than 12 gauge.

 

[DocRock]

DocRock,

Thanks for the response. The pellet size for 00 or 000 may be the same, but there is fewer shot and far less powder in a 410 shell. The velocities for 410 are much lower than 12 gauge.

No; they aren’t. I gave you a specific example: a 410 load at 1200 FPS and a 12 ga load at 1200 fps. Same pellet size, same velocity, same energy.

You seem to think 9 pellets is better than 34 pellets. I don’t.

 

[MG77]

A .410 bore would be close to a 67 gauge, respectively. The shot shells are much smaller. You can’t fit nearly enough powder or shot in that small of a shell to equal the velocities and energy of a 12 gauge. Just for grins, even in your example, at equal velocities, the payload with 34 pellets at the same velocity as the payload with 9 pellets of the same size shot would have more energy. More mass hitting the target at equal speed as the lesser payload = more energy.

Two identical school buses hitting a wall at 30 mph will impart more energy on the wall than one identical school bus hitting a wall at 30 mph.

I did mention that 410 will of course shoot through interior walls. But it is still effective at close ranges and will pose “less” of a hazard at further distances.

 

[DocRock]

A .410 bore would be close to a 67 gauge, respectively. The shot shells are much smaller. You can’t fit nearly enough powder or shot in that small of a shell to equal the velocities and energy of a 12 gauge. Just for grins, even in your example, at equal velocities, the payload with 34 pellets at the same velocity as the payload with 9 pellets of the same size shot would have more energy. More mass hitting the target at equal speed as the lesser payload = more energy.

Two identical school buses hitting a wall at 30 mph will impart more energy on the wall than one identical school bus hitting a wall at 30 mph.

I did mention that 410 will of course shoot through interior walls. But it is still effective at close ranges and will pose “less” of a hazard at further distances.

Again. I can do math. It appears that you struggle with it. A .330” ball at 1200 FPS has the same energy no matter what the size of bore it comes from. That’s just fact.

Your opinion is that 9 pellets are “adequate” for home defense. My opinion is that “adequate” is not suitable in a home defense firearm.

 

[chicharrones]

I've never thought that someone wanting a .410 double action revolving "shotgun" would expect to have the firepower of a 12 gauge repeater.

I figured that .410 home defense shotguns were always proposed for those that were averse to heavy recoil. Which reminds me of the Mossberg 500 HS410.

 

[Rex in OTZ]

Interesting concept.
Any reason it has to be .45 colt?
Why not .44 mag?

In fact there is a Rossi Circuit Judge in .44 Magnum.

Or possibly UNIVERSAL VULCAN 44 CAL or the

IMI Timberwolf .44mag Pump Action Rifle.​

 

[Rodfac]

From a plain surface observation, what I like about a double action revolving carbine over a pump gun is that simply pulling the trigger makes the revolver cycle the action. Which should make the revolving carbine easier to make follow up shots either left handed or right handed than a pump (or lever) gun. Do you already own a Circuit Judge Carbine, @MG77?

Ah, yes but you lose that distinctive racking of the slide sound...IMHO, a first rate deterrent to an aggressor. Rod

 

[KevininPa]

Since the Landor is sold as a shotgun from the get-go, it should be legal in the USA. @KevininPa says he has one and I assume Pa means Pennsylvania.

Yes, Pa means Pennsylvania. I got it off of Gunbroker from a shop in Maine. Every now and then they pop up on Gunbroker and some online shops sell them as well. They only came out within the last couple years. There is also a lever action model with a cylinder. Good chance that these are slipping in under ATF's radar. Theoretically they should fall under yhe Street Sweeper regs even though the cylinder doesn't detach. The Russians had a twenty guage that couldn't be imported because of that back when Soviet firearms were allowed.

We'll see what happens.

 

[whughett]

Well I just took the time to read the ruling where ATF classified the Street Sweeper as a “Destructive Device”. It was based primarily on size of bore, shot shell capacity and methods of of driving the revolving
Drum magazine, as well as weight and length of the device and it’s original use.
I’m not very bright in legal matters but my reading skills are pretty good.
The Judge doesn’t even come close to a “destructive device” by definition as applied to the street sweeper.

 

[BlueHeelerFl]

Well I just took the time to read the ruling where ATF classified the Street Sweeper as a “Destructive Device”. It was based primarily on size of bore, shot shell capacity and methods of of driving the revolving
Drum magazine, as well as weight and length of the device and it’s original use.
I’m not very bright in legal matters but my reading skills are pretty good.
The Judge doesn’t even come close to a “destructive device” by definition as applied to the street sweeper.

IIRC there are a handful of states where the Circuit Judge is illegal since they treat it the same as the street sweeper

 

[BlueHeelerFl]

.

Just for speculation, not knowing laws against such. It’s down fall for shot gun use is the rifling in the bore. It’s too shallow, the rifling, is be fully effective on bullets, hence its diminished accuracy with metallic cartridges. But enough to impart spin on the shot cup of the 410 load of buckshot.

Could the barrel be reamed smooth or smoother to improve the grouping of shot. I mean if one really wanted a revolver 410 shotgun.

The problem is that the Circuit Judge is considered a 45 Colt rifle that is also capable of shooting 410 shells. Removing the rifling from a rifle I assume would be illegal

 

[Walkalong]

it is a cool little carbine. I

It is, and would be fun to shoot, but I have better options for car jackers imho.

Could it work? Sure. Best choice? No

 

[BlueHeelerFl]

Which is more powerful?

- A .330” lead ball at 1200 FPS, or a .330” lead ball at 1200 FPS ?


A 00 buck ball delivered at 1200 FPS, whether from a .410 barrel or a .725 barrel is equally powerful. And in either case, extensive studies show that such a ball is likely to penetrate outside walls of houses, let alone inside drywall.

A 410 delivers a lesser payload, but is not less powerful. Any concerns one has about overpenetration by 00 buck are equally true, regardless of gauge. The .410 will deliver a lesser payload, substantially fewer balls than a 12 ga, for example. That is not something one generally desires in a home defense weapon.

The balance between “enough” penetration and “not enough” seems to, albeit arguably, rest at #4 buck.

3” .410 Federal Premium #4 buck delivers 9 pellets. Federal Premium 12 ga 2.75” delivers 34 pellets of #4 buck. Let’s assume a nominal 1200 FPS for both.

Equally powerful. But the 12 ga delivers almost 3 times the payload of projectiles. And the lightly rifled barrel of the Circuit Judge is not contributing to a a better pattern.

You may use what you wish for home defense. You may hold whatever opinion you like about what constitutes “enough” for home defense. But the facts are just that: facts. The .410 delivers a substantially smaller payload. The contents of that payload, if launched at the same velocity as that of a 12ga , are equally powerful, just less dense.

It is my opinion, that less payload and less density are not a desirable qualities in a home defense shotgun...

Many people, both men and women, are not up to the recoil of a 12 gauge. Whether it's fear of the recoil or, like my Mother, elderly and too frail to handle it, the 12 gauge is too much gun for many people.

Since the panic started I've seen several people at my lgs/indoor range being shown the basics of how to fire their brand new 12 gauge shotgun , and many of them would have been better served with a 410 or 28 cause they didn't look happy with the handful of rounds they fired. Especially the family that got a pistol grip 12 gauge.

This doesn't even get into any of them can rack a shotgun properly if they need to under stress

 

[BlueHeelerFl]

Interesting concept.
Any reason it has to be .45 colt?
Why not .44 mag?

In fact there is a Rossi Circuit Judge in .44 Magnum.

Or possibly UNIVERSAL VULCAN 44 CAL or the

IMI Timberwolf .44mag Pump Action Rifle.​

I think 44 mag chamber is not wide enough to accept a 410 shell.

 

[whughett]

The problem is that the Circuit Judge is considered a 45 Colt rifle that is also capable of shooting 410 shells. Removing the rifling from a rifle I assume would be illegal

Well that makes no sense as we can place a rifled barrel on a shot gun,but not a shot gun barrel(?) on a rifle. (carbine) and some single shots are sold with interchangeable barrels

 

[DocRock]

Forget the Circuit Judge!

The answer to the unasked question is: The LeMat centerfire rifle. Nine rounds of .44 cal and a 20 gauge minishell