CITIZEN'S ARREST BY CCWers - Close Call

[Leanwolf]

Here's one that very nearly went wrong for two honest CCW holders who were involved in a downtown Citizen's Arrest situation. Well intentioned, but........

Fortunately, one did not shoot the other, but it could have gone very badly.

Be very sure what you're confronting when you pull your handgun, folks.

http://www.ktvb.com/news/localnews/stories/ktvbn-jul1709-citizen_arrest.4e0b1fd0.html

L.W.

 

[Enginetech88]

This is very true. I have lived out in the country my whole life. So its always been helping your neighbor, looking out for friends type thing. So naturally I would want to help the guy who had his bag stolen. But I have been working at convincing myself to mind my own business and keep reminding myself that its not my fault the guy who had the bag stolen cant protect himself. Thats his choice. For all I know that bag could have a bomb in it. Josh

 

[Gamera]

What's next? Whipping out the guns when someone jaywalks in front of your car?

 

[Trill Gear Head]

What do you think they could be charged with?

 

[Gamera]

Brandishing a weapon, disturbing the peace, something to that effect. In my state it's illegal to draw your concealed weapon unless you're in immediate threat of death or serious bodily injury. Well ok actually there are a couple other situations where you can legally draw, but I assure you that "duffle bag being stolen" is NOT one of them.

 

[Lonestar49]

...

Unfortunately, they most likely will need a lawyer to present a legal citizens arrest, case. And of course, not knowing if the caught criminal, had a hidden weapon, one had fear for his life while making a citizens arrest and the other feared for his life seeing the gun, thinking he was robbing the BG holding the stolen bag..

What a mess, and unfortunately, it will cost them both, time and money, and maybe worse, if they lose their cases.


Ls

 

[Gamera]

Someone should have reminded those guys that the license doesn't come with a bat-cape.

 

[jon_in_wv]

Brandishing a firearm amongst other things. The guy with the duffle bag didn't threaten the CCW holder. He went out of his way to intervene and introduced his weapon to the situation. BAD practice for a CCW holder. If your not a police officer you shouldn't try to play one. I know most people just want to help but jumping into a situation that doesn't involve you can get really, really tricky. Once I was stopped on the road by a woman who was running frantically and screaming that a man was trying to kidnap her. There was a man clearly chasing her. It was a domestic dispute. They were fighting and she was just trying to get me involved. I'm sure she didn't know I had my .38 in my hand where they couldn't see. Her child was also in their car. If I had gone hero mode and shot him, do you think the wife would have backed me up in court? I'm quite sure if I would have gotten my weapon involved in that situation at all it would have ended badly for me in one way or another. In the story above, its a duffle bag people, let him have it. I'm sure there is nothing in it worth shooting someone for.

P.S. Also you need to be aware of what the laws are for your state concerning citizens arrest. Some states allow it but do NOT allow you to use force especially deadly force to affect it.

 

[model of 1905]

Neither of these "sheepdogs" were in any imminent danger and should have kept their guns concealed.

Folks if you want to be LEO join the agency of your choice.

I am not a sheepdog and have no desire to be. I protect me and mine. And maybe you and yours if you are imminent danger and I just happen to be in a position to do so. Otherwise, I'm dialing 911 and will be a good witness.

Gunfights are best avoided and guns carried by law abiding citizens should be drawn only when needed to stop a threat of great bodily harm or death. These two guys must fancy themselves John Wayne.

 

[gimlet1/21]

No good deed goes unpunished.

 

[danprkr]

A duffel bag isn't worth my hassle in this instance. I think I'd have let that one go.

 

[Old Fuff]

When I first got an Arizona CCW the instructor went to great lengths to point out that the license did not confer any law enforcement authority to the holder. While Arizona statutes do allow a citizen arrest under some circumstances he strongly suggested that we all read the law so we'd know what the restrictions and liabilities were.

I did so, and quickly decided that I no longer had any interest in making my own arrests. Not all states allow citizen arrests, but if they do where you live, and you have any thought of making such an arrest, you'd better read what the law says first.

You will find that when you detain someone - especially at gunpoint - you take onto yourself full responsibility for your action, and if you make a mistake you can be charged with many things, including kidnapping.

In an extreme case, an Arizona rancher lost everything he owned because he was openly carrying a handgun while "detaining" a group of illegal aliens standing in a public road while waiting for Border Patrol officers to arrive.

 

[moooose102]

No good deed goes unpunished.

yep, that is for certain! personaly, i wouldn't have yanked my gun out for petty theft, unless the jerk hurt seriously hurt an old lady during the heist. then it wouldnt be for the duffle bag, it would have been for the assult. but in any case, that was just one seriously screwed up situation. nobody knows what was in the duffle bag. it could have been anything from a dozen puppies headed for the pound, to $100,000.00 worth of mob money, to a small but very deadly ammonium nitrate or small pox powder bomb, to the guys dirty laundry (most likely). you have to be careful about what you CHOOSE to get yourself involved in. for all we know, (as the situation took place) the guy taking the bag could have been taking it back from the guy who stole it from him in the first place. for me, i got my ccw for the instance when somebody FORCES ME into a situation i otherwise could not get out of. my other guaranteed action response situation would be rape / child molestation. those &^%$%#@@%&(* do not deserve to live to get a trial!

 

[nathan]

Glad there was no crossfire afterwards.

 

[mcdonl]

The guy with the duffle bag didn't threaten the CCW holder. He went out of his way to intervene and introduced his weapon to the situation.

In my state, this would have removed the self defense argument. Although in my state you can also activate citizens arrests. I still feel very very underinformed.

 

[doc2rn]

In an extreme case, an Arizona rancher lost everything he owned because he was openly carrying a handgun while "detaining" a group of illegal aliens standing in a public road while waiting for Border Patrol officers to arrive

Dont get that but ok...note to self dont go to Arizona ever!

 

[divemedic]

Pointing a gun at someone is NOT deadly force in Florida, and maybe not anywhere else, either.

Remember that deadly force is that amount of force which can be reasonably expected to cause death or serious bodily injury. Pointing a gun at someone does not do that until you FIRE the gun.

In Florida, the case Riviero v State, 871 So.2d 953 (Fla. 3DCA 2004), states that as a matter of law, pointing a gun at someone is non-deadly force. Whether or not it constitutes aggravated assault is a different matter.

 

[pbearperry]

They could be charged with being Mall Ninjas without a license.

 

[Old Fuff]

Dont get that but ok...note to self dont go to Arizona ever!

What exactly happen is open to question, but the Mexican government got involved with lawyers, lawsuits, formal complaints to the State Department, and such. Some criminal charges were also brought. Because of liberal advocacy organizations and politics, detaining illegal immigrants can become very sticky, and not just in Arizona. One issue was his right to hold anyone that wasn’t on his property. They of course claimed that he drew his gun, he said that he didn’t – but there were more of them and he had no way to back up his story. Most locals (including law enforcement officers) don’t go beyond calling the Border Patrol if they spot a suspected illegal, because it isn’t worth the grief and you never know which side our government will be on. :banghead:

Your welcome to visit us, but if you don't care to we'll try to live through it.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Somewhere, there is a mall missing two of its security personnel.

 

[TexasRifleman]

Pointing a gun at someone is NOT deadly force in Florida, and maybe not anywhere else, either.

Same in Texas in some cases, such as this one.

Dont get that but ok...note to self dont go to Arizona ever!

That's a completely different thing. Generally you must witness the crime committed to exercise a "citizens arrest". Just because you are pretty sure you are detaining illegals who have broken a crime crossing the border isn't enough unless you actually witness a crime being committed.

Exercising a citizens arrest on "suspicion" is a good way to end up getting sued into the ground, which is what happened in Arizona.

 

[DMK]

When I first got an Arizona CCW the instructor went to great lengths to point out that the license did not confer any law enforcement authority to the holder.

This should be covered in every CCL class. It wasn't covered in mine and that was taught by two cops. I wouldn't consider such a thing, but obviously some folks do think a CCL and a gun makes them a crimefighter.

I have no interest in helping someone I don't know who doesn't make the effort to protect themselves. I'll call 911. Let them figure out who's who.

Getting involved in situations you know nothing about can have even worse implications than these two guys above saw:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=462650

 

[rbernie]

Pointing a gun at someone is NOT deadly force in Florida, and maybe not anywhere else, either.

As TR pointed out, in Texas it is NOT considered deadly force to produce a firearm. Here is the specific wording:

PC §9.04.

Threats as Justifiable Force

The threat of force is justified when the use of force is justified by this chapter. For purposes of this section, a threat to cause death or serious bodily injury by the production of a weapon or otherwise, as long as the actor's purpose is limited to creating an apprehension that he will use deadly force if necessary, does not constitute the use of deadly force.

Now, combine the presentation of a firearm with words like, "Say your prayers, boy! You'se gonna meet your maker!", will likely meet the definition of 'deadly force' and escalate the situation into places you do not want it to go.

A few more Texas-specific statutes, for reading enjoyment:

PC §9.05.

Reckless Injury of Innocent Third Person

Even though an actor is justified under this chapter in threatening or using force or deadly force against another, if in doing so he also recklessly injures or kills an innocent third person, the justification afforded by this chapter is unavailable in a prosecution for the reckless injury or killing of the innocent third person.

PC §9.06.

Civil Remedies Unaffected

The fact that conduct is justified under this chapter does not abolish or impair any remedy for the conduct that is available in a civil suit.

Note that escalating a confrontation, third party or otherwise, opens the CHL holder up to charges of recklessness as defined by your peers in the community.

I would also assume (dangerous word, there) that no Castle Doctrine would cover the CHL holders conduct in this instance, since both CHL holders were intervening/inserting themselves into the observed affairs of others and were not directly at risk until they chose to intervene.

 

[danbrew]

Interesting - where are all the people here that would otherwise be calling these two CCW men heroes? And fine upstanding members of their community. And those willing to fight for something that means something? And protecting their neighbors? And not standing by idly while evil triumphs?

These two morons need to have charges filed. They need to lose their CCW. They need to spend thousands defending their ill considered actions.

How does this first CCW guy know that duffle didn't belong to the guy that "stole" it? (It apparently didn't, but how did he know that?) How did he know that the guy with the duffle wasn't an armed individual - whether a crook, a CCW holder, or even a cop - that might take unkindly to having somebody draw down on him? And how did the second CCW guy know that the first CCW guy wasn't a cop?

The bottom line is that the guy with the duffle is accused of stealing the duffle. He's not been convicted of any crime and it remains to be seen if he will. The CCW holders? They've been accused of a crime too, but I'll bet they have a lot more to lose than the guy walking around town with a duffle bag.

Some folks don't get that CCW doesn't equal badge.

 

[Yo Mama]

Interesting - where are all the people here that would otherwise be calling these two CCW men heroes? And fine upstanding members of their community. And those willing to fight for something that means something? And protecting their neighbors? And not standing by idly while evil triumphs?

There is a difference between brave and stupid. Maybe folks here know this. Maybe you're referring to the mailman discusssion recently?

Dont get that but ok...note to self dont go to Arizona ever!

While I disagree that the Rancher should not have been in trouble, AZ now has some new laws that reinforce the ability to hold someone at gun point, but only if you feel your life is in immediate danger. The Rancher's life was not in immediate danger, but he was and should have been pissed that illegals were everywhere on his land.

You have to understand, the border issue here is nuts. You had Napolitano who is now running your homeland security in charge of the border, and she never really cared. There are bleading heart liberals here as there are everywhere else, and they love showing the poor illegals and their plight. Lately with the economy it seems to have slowed to a halt.