Citizens can solve problems without Gov't intervention!

Status
Not open for further replies.
L

LawDog

Moderator Emeritus cum Laude
Joined
Dec 20, 2002
Messages
2,101
http://www.slug-lines.com

On one of my increasingly brief excursions into TV land, I saw a blurb concerning the practice of 'slugging' in Washignton, D.C. on one of the news networks.

I am impressed. This restores my faith in the average American citizen to improvise, adapt and overcome obstacles without turning towards an ever-increasing Big Nanny.

The above site explains the whole situation, but in a brief synopsis: there are High-Occupancy Vehicle lanes in Washington DC, available only to cars containing 3 or more people, as a (Gov't) method to persuade people to carpool. These lanes are frequently much less crowded than any other lanes.

So, people who wish to use these HOV lanes are pulling up to certain spots, calling out the destination they are going to, and complete strangers -- who have queued up in anticipation of this kind of thing -- then enter the car and are transported to that location.

Both the driver and the passengers receive a benefit: the passenger gets a ride to his destination without paying cab or bus fare, and the driver gets to use the faster HOV lane.

Take that, you Big Government idiots! We can do just fine without the Gov't lumbering into situations like a epilieptic bull rhino in a porcelan parlour, and the citizens do it cheaper and no muss/no fuss.

There is etiquette and rules around this practice, guaranteed locations and an informal rating system!

Goes to show: take yor average group of people, get the hell out of their way, and they'll fix the problem with out having to tax the ever-loving spam out of everyone else, and/or developing a six-layer bureaucracy and 14 squillion triplicate forms and three hundred GS-13 drones and a 400 page guideline and a whole new section in the Penal Code.

This makes me smile.

LawDog
 
Of course, all the rest of the commuters are sitting alone in the traffic, stewing for hours each day, then getting home at night and spending hours on internet forums, complaining about government making too many laws with the creation of HOV lanes, or the jack-booted-thuggery of the law enforcement folks when they pull over commuters for HOV lane violations ...
 
Well, when the first young lady gets abducted, raped, and killed by taking a ride with a complete stranger this will come to a screeching halt.

Greg
 
Great, so as an aspiring rapist-kidnapper, I now know that there are certain places I can go in completely disarmed DC and find people lined up to get in my car?

Great, so as an aspiring carjacker-robber, I now know that there are certain places I can go in completely disarmed DC and find people lined up to let me in their car?
 
Well, there is that, however, I'm thinking that picking up your potential victim from a line of 10, 20 or 40 potential eyewitnesses may make predators a little nervous. Plus, the driver has to pick up two passengers. HOV is minimum of three people. The potential victim may get in, along with a 6'8" inch Marine.

Besides, why dare the slugging system for victims, when the subway has proven to be a prime hunting ground? Or the parks?

Also, this system is totally voluntary. Not only do potential victims have the ability to take a bus, taxi, or subway in the first place, but the potential victims also don't have to get into the car.

Rapists may tend to get a bit discouraged when they troll for victims, but the young lady gets the heebie-jeebies, declines to get into the car, and her place is taken by the afore-mentioned Marine(s), FBI agent(s) or State Dept personnel.

I have checked the forum and the FAQ at that site, and they don't mention rapes and robberies. Since 'slugging' has apparently been going on for 30 or so years, an epidemic of rapes and/or robberies would probably be mentioned somewhere.

However, the point of all this is that The People can fix problems. If the Gov't were to, just for example, deconstruct the welfare system, this example tends to convince me that the citizens of the United States would be able to take care of their own needy.

Probably cheaper and more efficiently than the Gov't.

Or maybe I'm just optimistic.

LawDog
 
Actually, the problem in this example is government-caused. If we're all supposedly equal under the law, why do car poolers get to take advantage of the fast lane that we all pay for with our gasoline and assorted other taxes? I'd say this is actually an example of government tossing aside American ideals of equality in an effort to coerce people into socialist-type "sharing."
 
Actually, the problem in this example is government-caused.
Click to expand...
Huh? How so? We have only finite land space to build roads. The population is increasing. Any person these days, regardless of economic standing, can own an automobile, hence, far more vehicles on the roadways. The only solution to solving traffic problems in many areas is to attempt to get fewer vehicles on the roads during peak commuting hours.
I'd say this is actually an example of government tossing aside American ideals of equality in an effort to coerce people into socialist-type "sharing."
Click to expand...
Why on earth would you term this "socialist-type sharing?" I'd say that this country was founded on the spirit of sharing, something we're sadly lacking these days! If more people actually interacted together, tackled problems together, worked together, and yes, even commuted together, we'd have fewer problems. Whatever happened to the days when able-bodied people in the community all pitched in to do things that were to the benefit of the community? NOT everything done in a cooperative venture is socialism, Standing Wolf.
 
The only solution to solving traffic problems in many areas is to attempt to get fewer vehicles on the roads during peak commuting hours.
Click to expand...

Nope. The obvious solution to the problem of increased traffic is to build more roads. Government's job is to meet needs, not exercise control over them. I didn't say roads are cheap. I didn't say they're easy to build. I didn't, in fact, say government should be the organization to build them.

Many cities have grossly inadequate highways and streets. Instead of dealing with the crux of the matter, they're flatly refusing to deal with it; instead, they're imposing more and more restrictions on their citizens.

I'd say that this country was founded on the spirit of sharing, something we're sadly lacking these days! If more people actually interacted together, tackled problems together, worked together, and yes, even commuted together, we'd have fewer problems. Whatever happened to the days when able-bodied people in the community all pitched in to do things that were to the benefit of the community?
Click to expand...

There's a world of difference between charity, which is freely given, and taxation, which isn't. There's a world of difference, by the same token, between voluntarily pitching in for the good of one's community, which is freely given, and submitting to government coercion, which is the ugliness socialism always comes down to.

It's patently anti-American to charge everyone for road construction, then allow only those who share cars to use some of the lanes. If everyone had to pay for libraries, but only white people were allowed by government to use them, there'd be a hue and cry raised to wake the dead.
 
The obvious solution to the problem of increased traffic is to build more roads.
Click to expand...
Where? Oh wait, I've got it: with "eminent domain" the local and state governments can just seize up all the private property they need to build new roads ...

Seriously, though - you probably want to talk to some transportation engineers and some planners if you think this is possible everywhere.

Also -- where's the funding gonna come from? Hey, let's just raise taxes ...
Government's job is to meet needs
Click to expand...
Hoo boy, I'm having a hard time believing I just read that statement on this forum ...
not exercise control over them.
Click to expand...
All righty then, let's have the government build something, and then expect it not to act like a government and exercise control over it ...
Instead of dealing with the crux of the matter, they're flatly refusing to deal with it; instead, they're imposing more and more restrictions on their citizens.
Click to expand...
Oh sure, clearly, the creation of an HOV lane on your metro highways is a restriction of everyone's rights.
There's a world of difference, by the same token, between voluntarily pitching in for the good of one's community, which is freely given, and submitting to government coercion, which is the ugliness socialism always comes down to.
Click to expand...
Only on THR could using HOV lanes as intended be likened to submitting to government coercion.
It's patently anti-American to charge everyone for road construction, then allow only those who share cars to use some of the lanes. If everyone had to pay for libraries, but only white people were allowed by government to use them, there'd be a hue and cry raised to wake the dead.
Click to expand...
So you're saying HOV lanes are discriminatory? By encouraging citizens to save money on fuel, lessen (however slightly) the pollutants entering the atmosphere, speed up the traffic flow -- this is patently anti-American? Sorry, Standing Wolf, comparing car-pool lanes to racism just doesn't pass the logic test.
 
This kind of sounds like ......

The gubbmint makes a law about carpool lanes. You said these people took matters into their own hands, without gubbmint help............BUT, would they have done this had the carpool lane not been there??

So Technically, the gubbmint idea worked. They did force those people to carpool.

I dont like it..I say no carpool lanes, make more roads..thats what we are paying for.
 
Standing Wolf said:
Actually, the problem in this example is government-caused. If we're all supposedly equal under the law, why do car poolers get to take advantage of the fast lane that we all pay for with our gasoline and assorted other taxes? I'd say this is actually an example of government tossing aside American ideals of equality in an effort to coerce people into socialist-type "sharing."
Click to expand...
Wow. I knew it would happen one day, but it still makes me sad. I disagree with a Standing Wolf post! :D

The HOV lanes are a social answer to a social problem, and slugging is a grass-roots answer to congestion and high commuting costs. There has been virtually no crime that I can recall associated with slugs and body snatchers. There are breakins to cars parked at the commuter lots.

But back to the government-imposed occupancy limitations. I see this as no different from speed limits or parking regulations. To people who complain "I paid for these lanes, so why can't I use them?" I say "You can use them the same as I can: you simply have to have three people in your car, same as everybody else." With the popularity of slugging, this regulation inconveniences nobody and helps everybody. I don't see it as a big-guv problem.

TC
 
I live in MD and comute into DC on a fairly regular basis. To the people saying "build more roads." Maybe where you are living that's an option. Here in DC/MD/No VA it's simply not, no more room.

The HOV lane is a good idea. That being said even in the HOV lane traffic still sucks sometimes.
 
I remember seeing an article in the Post about a new problem. They've allowed drivers of hybrid vehicles to use the HOV lanes and the carpoolers are complaining about it being unfair. Social engineering never makes everyone happy.

I left the D.C. area for good in '70 because it was getting too crowded. And I lived in Rockville (15 miles north of D.C.) :)

John
 
Yeah the hybrids are reproducing like rabbits and the HOV lanes are crowded. I'm glad the exemption for hybrids will expire next year. No reason they can't pick up two bodies as well. The problem on I-95/395 is CONGESTION, not pollution. The hybrids do their image no good when they all seem to hang out in the left lane going below the speed limit/prevailing speed. I say Scroom.

TC
Long-time van pool owner/operator
 
90% of the time I drive on the highways around DC, the HOV lanes are empty or near so. The other 10% of the time, there's an accident or something and every lane is backed up all to hell.

HOV lanes do nothing to cut down on congestion - in fact, they make it worse. Americans in general do not want to carpool, share rides, or use public transportation - they want to get in their car, and go where they want to go. More power to them.

- Chris
 
Proud to be HOV Negative

Of course, all the rest of the commuters are sitting alone in the traffic, stewing for hours each day, then getting home at night and spending hours on internet forums, complaining about government making too many laws with the creation of HOV lanes, or the jack-booted-thuggery of the law enforcement folks when they pull over commuters for HOV lane violations ...
Click to expand...

DING, DING, DING, DING, DING ! Ladies & Gentlemen, we have a winner.

I sit right beside the 395 Hov negative backup, just mere feet away from the sparsely populated HOV lanes. They are an absolute, abject failure as implemented in and around DC and they should be eliminated. At least 4 lanes of traffic could be accomodated, possibly 5 where the HOV lanes have been built. This is an absolutely classic case of self perpetuating government.

1st, people move to desirable locations, quaint little small towns in the 'burbs. As people move in, traffic increases. The 'burbs don't want, need or are able to really use high taxes, so until the 'burbs are infiltrated with enough tax and spend liberals, the roads remain unchanged. All the while, people keep flooding in. As the liberals who want to be "close in" proliferate, they begin to lobby and push for social programs like they are used to/expect/feel entitled to, etc. Roads are low on that priority list. Eventually, enough social programs are in place that roads get minor attention. By this time, it's too late and Government is petitioned for help by the proliferating, tax and spend liberals. Government comes up with "car control" reasonable regulations, only allowing high capacity "assault" vehicles in special controlled lanes. This solution penalizes everyone, and benefits very, very few. In addition, it creates side effects, the most prevalent of which is the increase in automobile emissions from all the HOV Negative commuters sitting idle, while the 75% underutilized "assault vehicle" lanes move freely. Fortunately, government has an answer for that too; mandated emissions testing for all automobiles which will be at a set price, but government will need to have additional agencies to manage. So, we then have:
More people in the 'burbs
more government programs
barely attended to roads
government mandated 'assault vehicle' lanes that service only a minimal segment of society
and everybody gets to pay for the assault vehicle lanes by their increased taxes, mandated emissions testing, extra 10-15 minutes of commuting time, every day, which means more gas spent, meaning more taxes for state and federal governments, increased infrastructure to support 'assault vehicle' lane enforcement (they have to keep the world safe for terrorists, after all), increased DMV/MVA infrastructure to support the HOV designations, violation support, and emissions infrastructure and on & on...

So, government came up with a dumb idea at the behest of a fringe minority of lobbyists, which penalizes everyone, which can only be remedied by completely undoing the original governmental mistake. Yeah, that's going to happen.

Sluggers are an adaptation to a government interference. Sort of like radar detectors, laser jammers... Both private industry responses to government interference and yes, some of it is justified, but most of it is simple revenue generation. The beauty of a government program is that it typically outlives several generations of citizens, and the longer it exists the more difficult it becomes to get rid of...
 
Wow, I had never heard of the practice of "slugging."

When a coworker relocated to DC, everyone in the office pitched in to help him solve the HOV issue - we bought him Molly, the inflatable car companion. :evil:
 
Boy I'm disappointed. When I read this thread was about slugging and traffic, I thought it was going to be about somebody slapping the snot out of somebody for cutting him off in traffic. :D

Actually, I don't have much problem with traffic when I drive to White Cloud or over to Old Widow's Bend. What's the problem?
 
We're by no means out of room to build roads. If you can build a two-story house, you can build a two-story road. I didn't say it'd be cheap. I said it can be done.

We're already paying for road building with gasoline taxes; unfortunately, government would much rather build so-called "light rail systems" than roads: they're politically correct, whereas roads aren't.

Wow. I knew it would happen one day, but it still makes me sad. I disagree with a Standing Wolf post!
Click to expand...

Yeah, it happens to me now and then, too, although less frequently than it used to.
 
That's a pretty good idea actually. The Metro is great too. Fast, cheap, clean and relatively safe, even with DC's strict victim disarmament laws. It's really too bad, that's a great area. If it wasn't for their idiotic gun laws I would consider moving back.
 
TarpleyG said:
Well, when the first young lady gets abducted, raped, and killed by taking a ride with a complete stranger this will come to a screeching halt.

Greg
Click to expand...

Wouldn't happen if citizens would be allowed to carry firearms at all times (in DC firearm posession is banned)

See, the more laws the government creates, the more problems it creates.
 
Much as I hate the HOV lanes (when I have < 3 people in the car anyway :p ), I think they're a reasonable solution. Building more roads, even if you had the money and space, wouldn't necessarily help because more roads mean more intersections and more on/off ramps which are the main cause of congestion in the first place.
 
I knew it would happen one day, but it still makes me sad. I disagree with a Standing Wolf post!
Click to expand...
+1

It all depends on your point of view. If comparing, say, a 4-lane road with a 4-lane+HOV road, no-one has lost anything, everyone has gained, but carpoolers have gained more. If comparing, on the other hand, a 5-lane, HOV-free road with a 4-lane+HOV road, all non-carpoolers have lost.

The true crux of the matter is what all those second and third occupants of all those HOV cars would have been doing in the absence of the HOV lanes.

1. Would they have been in the same cars anyway? Then it goes back to how you compare the two roads.
2. Would they have been on public transportation? Then it still depends on the two-road comparison.
3. Would they have been in their own cars? Then everyone has gained either way. A car has been removed from the road (helping everyone) and those who helped to make that happen (the driver and passengers of the HOV) gain more than the rest.

This, somehow, is more complicated than it looks. Please feel free to point out flaws in my logic. It seems like there are some, but I can't see them.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top