Civil Defense Rifle

[woodybrighton]

well can't see every able body American putting in a couple of weekends military service every year which the swiss do.
even if you live abroad your get the opportunity to qualify if the swiss government can organize a range.
in Cyprus they used a British army range they shot pistol rifle and crossbow?.
But the swiss system is based on mass conscription and citizenship very different to the American model

I reckon I could hear the bitching from the UK. if it was implemented.
you get a free rifle but your have to do a years conscription and until your 65 four ruck marches a year 41/2 miles out stop at a restaurant 41/2 miles back
thats every man (god knows what the feminists would say)

 

[Limeyfellow]

I guess it could work well in Britain. Then we can send the chavs on masse against overwhelming firepower and when they are wiped out we can send in real soldiers to clean up. Solve two problems with one stone.

 

[RobTzu]

I think in the urban areas an AK knock off, with the ability to fire full auto.
For rural a mix between Ak knock offs and M-14s for long range work.

 

[MechAg94]

I seriously doubt they were standardize on one rifle. They would likely require it to use military ammo such as 5.56 or 7.62, but I bet they would allow a wide range of different rifles. There would likely be some caveat that if you pick some uber cool rifle, you have to maintain it and its magazines yourself.


One thing to remember is that you are talking about something like 100 million rifles. The govt doesn't have that many surplus arms and certainly wouldn't buy them for everyone. IMHO, I would suggest allowing common military calibers as well as few common civilian calibers. 100 million men and women with 30-30 leverguns and support weapon (crew served and rocket launchers) would still be something substantial for an enemy to deal with.

 

[kmrcstintn]

well I see a few major problems...

1) federal government over-legislation will eventually ban any sort of weapon to include pointy steak knives...why stop there...they would start with ban this and ban that until even having long fingernails is considered harmful to others

2) the dominions of evil tree huggers would rally to save the trees and woodland critters that would get hurt by opening too many practice ranges that require lead management

3) my stupid state wildlife management agency (Pennsylvania Game Commission) is closing down several ranges in the area for whop knows how long and for whatever reason (?lead removal and land rehabilitation?)...we'd never have such a rifle due to the fact that there will be nowhere to practice

 

[HorseSoldier]

Never happen (and what's the point? We're never going to see invasion by a foreign power in my lifetime), but if it did, it would not make any sense to use anything but whatever the current service rifle, possibly converted to semi-auto only or produced in a semi only format.

 

[dstorm1911]

Limey fellow, I have a very good friend (in his 80s now) who was one of the Germans sent into the Swiss alps to feel out the Swiss resistance, when he seen onea my K-31s for the first time he started mutterin and swearin bout it and then told me the story... the first time he was sent he said the Officers were dropped from well over 400 yards out he ended up losing 3 toes to frost bite as did most of his fellow soldiers 8 months later he was selected to try again.... this time the officers were smarter they forced enlisted men to wear their tunics and head gear those men were immediately eliminated again without ever seeing those shooting at them and Fritz lost 3 fingers from his left hand and his pinky from his right hand to frostbite he told me he had decided if they sent him again he would shoot his own officers and then himself but the war ended before it came to that.......


The Swiss have a sealed tin with 50 rnds in it at home , when there service term is up they must return the sealed tin of ammo, they pay $80 to have their issued SG-550 converted to Semi auto and its marked with a "P" to signify private ownership and its theirs, Every soldier is issued a current issue infantry rifle and that is the only rifle they have the option of keeping when their term of service is up, doesn't matter what other weapons they might have used during their service they can keep the converted infantry rifle Ammunition is whats closly regulated in Switzerland, however they can go to the state target ranges and shoot all they want........ at the range no ammo is to leave with em, they can buy ammo but must have a permit to do so...

The Stgw-57 was relegated to Home gaurd and reserve status in I think 2000 and the SG-550 took over as the Stg-90 (Swiss designation)

 

[.45&TKD]

Never happen (and what's the point? We're never going to see invasion by a foreign power in my lifetime),

Maybe possible, according to Matt Bracken's preview of the third of his Trilogy "Foreign Enemies".

 

[Jeff White]

Maybe possible, according to Matt Bracken's preview of the third of his Trilogy "Foreign Enemies".

I haven't read any of Matt Bracken's books. But I will tell you based on 28 years 11 months service in the US Army, that no foreign power can project sufficient force far enough from it's borders to mount an invasion with a force large enough to seize and hold even a small part of this country.

Weapons must have ammunition, soldiers must eat, vehicles and aircraft must have fuel. The idea that an invading army could roll across the US border capturing the amount of food and fuel it would need to sustain operations is ridiculous. We are the worlds last superpower and the strain on our resources to support somewhere around 200,000 troops between Iraq and Afghanistan who are in a low intensity conflict is about all our nation can bear without making big changes in our way of life.

No one is physically coming for us, because no one has the resources to actually do it.

Jeff

 

[amprecon]

If the Dems were in charge? Whatever weeney weapon they could contrive would have to be P/C and include an integral ethnic and party affiliation discriminator attached.

 

[jpwilly]

I was wondering the other day, if the US had a program like Switzerland where every house had a gun, what would that rifle be like?

Yea actually they do have a plan it's called the Army National Guard. Anyone else will need to excersize their 2nd ammendment rights! But to answer your question...an M16 semi auto. I don't think they have a stockpile of anything else.

 

[precisionshootist]

Never happen (and what's the point? We're never going to see invasion by a foreign power in my lifetime),

An armed population is one of the primary forces deterring such an invasion. Our enemies know that even if they could defeat our military they would be fighting an endless and virtually unwinnable gorilla war against US Citizens.

 

[RevolvingCylinder]

We're gonna send gorillas at them!? Sure we have enough? Maybe instead guerrilla tactics should be implemented.

Firstly, there is an ongoing invasion that has been occurring for some time now(where have you been?). Secondly, the federal government views armed Americans as more of a threat than any other armed force. Hence, gun control.

 

[.45&TKD]

And yes, there will be a final novel completing the trilogy: Foreign Enemies: State of Emergency. This last book in the series will see the vestigal U.S. federal government invite foreign "peacekeepers" into America, in an attempt to regain control over the rebellious western and southern states. These states have rejected the validity of the "New Constitution," which enshrines socialist prinicples into law. Once again, the promise of U.S. citizenship and free land will be used to draw foreign enemies onto American territory. I won't be finished writing Foreign Enemies before 2008 at the earliest.

Matt Bracken - June 2007

http://matthewbracken.web.aplus.net/bookde.htm

Granted, it is fiction, but it is a fiction based on truth and real world events.

 

[HorseSoldier]

An armed population is one of the primary forces deterring such an invasion. Our enemies know that even if they could defeat our military they would be fighting an endless and virtually unwinnable gorilla war against US Citizens.

That was the original intention of the framers of the Constitution, but that was before we had a navy worth mentioning, you could fit the enture US army onto a football field and the USMC into a good sized tavern, etc.

It has little, if anything at all, to do with the modern world situation where the USN outnumbers or outshoots all its potential enemies put together, the USAF does that or better, one American army or marine division packs more firepower than a Chinese field army, etc etc etc.

The only tyrants the 2nd Amendment could conceivably be used to protect against these days are homegrown ones . . .

Firstly, there is an ongoing invasion that has been occurring for some time now(where have you been?). Secondly, the federal government views armed Americans as more of a threat than any other armed force. Hence, gun control.

Luckily, I suppose, the beaches at Ellis Island were not so well guarded when my Irish ancestors stormed ashore around 1850. Unless you're typing from an Indian reservation, any "invasion" currently occurring is nothing our ancestors collectively did not do themselves 1+ generations ago.

And every previous wave of immigrants thought the latest arrivals were the end of civilization. The Irish were going to destroy the moral fabric of this country, a generation or two later it was the Poles, then the European Jews, then the Italians, with the Chinese and Japanese thrown in there along the way doing the same thing and none of whom spoke English and all of whom just weren't like us good Americans etc.

 

[.45&TKD]

every previous wave of immigrants thought the latest arrivals were the end of civilization.

Some problems with your line of reasoning:

1) You are comparing legal immigration with illegal immigration.
2) Drugs were not being smuggled through Ellis Island. Drugs are being smuggled through our porous border.
3) This is the first time we have had this large of an immigration wave combined with a modern "welfare" state. The latest wave is not economically beneficial or sustainable.

 

[HorseSoldier]

1) You are comparing legal immigration with illegal immigration.

The concept of legal versus illegal immigration did not even exist for much of our country's history. When the concept was invented, it was always used to obstruct the arrival of the latest wave of immigrants, whoever they were, and it was always bypassed when possible by some portion of those immigrants.

Meaningless point.

2) Drugs were not being smuggled through Ellis Island. Drugs are being smuggled through our porous border.

Drugs were not smuggled through Ellis Island for the simple, and sole, reason that there were no illegal drugs at the time.

Again, meaningless point in regards to immigration. And, since most of the drugs used in this country are being used by native born Ah-Mer-Cans who fuel their importation by spending literal mountains of money to obtain them, you could completely zero out immigration, legal and illegal, and guess what? The drugs are still going to make their way into our country. Huge demand and outrageous profits for illicit substances have nothing to do with people coming to this country looking for a better future.

3) This is the first time we have had this large of an immigration wave combined with a modern "welfare" state. The latest wave is not economically beneficial or sustainable.

Really? What skin color do the guys you see putting roofs on houses and mowing lawns have? If less than half of them didn't look like extras from Apocalypto you live in a different country than me. What do you think the skin color of the guy who cooked the last meal you bought in a resturant was? If not the chef, the guy who washed your dishes and mopped the resturant floor for minimum wage?

In any case, this conversation, however knee-jerk reactionary and media-hysteria-talking points one side's comments seem to be, is entirely off topic and does not belong on Rifle board.

 

[Pigspitter]

In free America there is a magical town called Kennesaw, Georgia that requires all households to have a firearm and ammunition in them.

 

[wcwhitey]

Following WWII it was not uncommon for local Guard Armories to be overstocked in 1903's and 1917's. Our government thought about the possibility or having to arm the local population if the SHTF during the Cold War. That was then. I am not sure about currently. I would think that there has to be some sort of contingency plan for a catastrophic event. My thinking is that it would follow an order like 1. First line military 2. National Guard 3. Federal and Local Law Enforcement 4. Deputizing the citizenry. I cannot think of any other reason that they would hold in storage such large quantities or surplus. Bill

 

[Nil]

I personally see no reason why the government should arm the citizenry with weapons. If some sort of training was implemented, perhaps, but the US has no reason to fear a foreign invasion anytime in the foreseeable future.

And besides, the recent gun ownership study listed 90 firearms for every 100 Americans. While obviously a large percentage of those are in the hands of a small number of citizens with relatively large collections, if faced with circumstances that would necessitate arming the populace, I hope some of them would be magnanimous enough to part with some of them to arm their neighbors. A lone citizen with a hunting rifle would be incredibly difficult for any army to overcome if repeated tens of millions times.

 

[Browning]

Jeff White
Moderator : I haven't read any of Matt Bracken's books. But I will tell you based on 28 years 11 months service in the US Army, that no foreign power can project sufficient force far enough from it's borders to mount an invasion with a force large enough to seize and hold even a small part of this country.

Weapons must have ammunition, soldiers must eat, vehicles and aircraft must have fuel. The idea that an invading army could roll across the US border capturing the amount of food and fuel it would need to sustain operations is ridiculous. We are the worlds last superpower and the strain on our resources to support somewhere around 200,000 troops between Iraq and Afghanistan who are in a low intensity conflict is about all our nation can bear without making big changes in our way of life.

No one is physically coming for us, because no one has the resources to actually do it.

Jeff

I respect your view of the conventional military situation based on your length of service in the military, but we are in fact being invaded. For the most part it isn't by a foreign military, but we're being invaded nevertheless. We're being invaded by millions of Illegal Aliens. It's probably not a subject often talked about on THR, but it's true.

Illegal Immigration Statistics.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigration_to_the_United_States

The Coming Breakup Of America I
http://www.frostywooldridge.com/articles/art_2004jul07.html

The Coming Breakup Of America II
http://www.newswithviews.com/Wooldridge/frosty29.htm

Center For Immigration Studies.
http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html

Estimated Number Of Illegal Immigrants.
http://www.statemaster.com/graph/peo_est_num_of_ill_imm-people-estimated-number-illegal-immigrants

Professor Who Talks About The Possibility Of A Future War With Mexico.
http://www.aztlan.net/future_us_invasion_of_mexico.htm

This War Is Very Fresh To Many People In Mexico Because They Lost Land To The US.
http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican-American_War

Mexico Plans To Block Wall Between US and Mexico.
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8EK9N0G6&show_article=1

Illegal Aliens.
http://www.usillegalaliens.com/

Illegal Immigration and Gangs.
http://www.usillegalaliens.com/impacts_of_illegal_immigration_gangs.html

MS-13
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mara_Salvatrucha

Article on MS-13
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7244879/site/newsweek/

Article on MS-13
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-01-05-gang-grows_x.htm

Mexican Mafia - All Sureno Gangs answer to them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_Mafia

Illegal Immigration Group.
http://www.alipac.us/article1187.html

Site That Talks About The Possibility of Conflict.
http://www.alpinesurvival.com/immigration-2.html

This is what we're really talking about isn't it? Defending the US from an invasion and what rifle that could possibly be used to do it with? Talking about armed conflict that is breaking out here and there and the increased tension in the US over the subject of illegal immigration is THE scenario most likely to result in what we're talking about isn't it? It's not a nice subject, but it seems like that's what this thread is about without actually mentioning it by name. Why dance around around the subject?

Who else would go to war with the US? Canada? Honduras? Brazil?

Is China Going To Make It Over Here If A Trade War Explodes Into A Shooting War?

Nations are often pulled into war as the result of their ethnic group having some political trouble on the other side of the border. That's what Germany used as an excuse to send troops into Czechloslovakia and then later Poland. It was the result of supposed persecution of the German minority in both of those countries.

Wouldn't Mexico at the very least help out their own people? The Republic of Ireland helped out the IRA in the beginning of the "Irish Troubles" with arms, training and money. Would Mexico do any less for their people? They might not have to send soldiers, all they have to do is provide a safe haven and arms and money the way that Laos and Cambodia did for the VC during Vietnam for an unconventional war. There are already political advocates of the State of Aztlan that want the Southwestern States of the US (California, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas) to split from the US if they become the majority of the population in those States.

What would happen if the US Government tried mass arrests of Illegal Aliens in the Southwest to deport them to their country or origin? There would be huge riots and mass civil unrest wouldn't there? Who would likely fight for the Hispanics, wouldn't the Hispanic gangs jump into that role? That basically means that the US Government can't enforce it's own laws on it's own soil. Those demonstrations taught us that Illegal Immigration is a very touchy subject and it provided a glimpse into what these leftist radicals think like with their speeches in front of the cameras. Most of us saw all that on TV didn't we? I shouldn't be telling you anything new.

Vincente Fox has even made the statement that "he's proud of his people for extending the border beyond it's true borders". Mexico's military has also gone over the US border many times and has even engaged in firefights with the US Border Patrol and local law enforcement. They've kidnapped US civilians and stolen vehicles. It's not exactly an ideal situation and it's kind of weird that I'm one of the first ones to say it straight out that Mexico is likely who we'd have to defend ourselves against with these rifles that we're talking about.

Low Intensity war doesn't require a whole lot of funds or technical know how. All it requires is a cause, people to support the fighters and a country to help them obtain what they need in the way of hardware, training and a safe haven. People that want a State of Aztlan have all three from Mexico if the situation breaks out or gets any worse. Mexico doesn't even have to fight, unless the US invaded the way it did during the Mexican Civil War when they sent US Troops to chase Pancho Via.

It's either that or this. A North American Union With The US No Longer Being A Sovereign Nation.

http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0199-2223484/Mexico-NAFTA-and-the-prospects.html

Personally if the US does ever have to defend itself it'll probably be with M-16A2's and M4's as that's what are in US Government depots. I wonder if the US will ever defend itself from this invasion because it doesn't really seem like it has so far despite everybody knowing about it.

After I read The Boston Gun Bible I started reading the recommended reading listed in the end of that book. That book led me to Civil War II : The Coming Breakup Of America by Thomas Chittum. The title describes itself pretty well. It's not a racist book, just one guys observations about the current situation and he compares it to other countries that exploded into civil war. That book then led me to both of Matthew Brackens books which are basically the same scenario only in novel form. All three are great books and people interested in the subject should buy them.

 

[wdlsguy]

It would take an act of Congress in order to dispense surplus M16's to the civvy population, literally.

They could always rebuild the lowers with semi-auto receivers and fire control groups.

 

[Float Pilot]

1. According to the founding fathers we are all members of the citizen militia.

2. As such, it is your / our responsibility to possess and be proficient with a military style firearm similar or the same as that used by the standing Army.

3. The enemies of our Republic may be foreign or domestic.

4. Some of our enemies come under different names, Apathy, Corruption, Crime, Treason and so on..


A rabid rat from your own back yard, can bite just as bad as one from across the border.

 

[qbpc]

This is easy depends on what politician in high power has a spouse, parent, brother, sister, or what ever invested in an arms manufacture. You all are looking at it with common sense not political logic.

BB

 

[woof]

Whatever it was there would be a lot of them available on the street the next day for ten bucks or a bottle of cheap liquor each.