Clays for 44 Spl

[D.B. Cooper]

A while back, someone suggested switching from Unique to Clays for 44 spl. I'm ready to give that a try, but I don't see a lot of load data on the internet.

Hodgdon suggests 3.5 - 4.5 grains under a 200 grn LRNFP, which is exactly the projectile I use (Missouri Bullet Co.) That will produce velocities of 748-891fps, which is right about what I'm getting with 7.5 grains Unique.

So far, so good.

My question is about velocity and barrel length. Velocities posted on Hodgdon's site are for an 8" barrel. I'm using a 4.2" barrel. Any idea how much velocity I should subtract for half the barrel length? I doubt it's a linear extrapolation.

 

[Walkalong]

I would think Clays could push that bullet at 700/750 FPS from a 4.2" tube.

 

[GooseGestapo]

Although Clays measures about like corn flakes, I found that 4.2gr under a Lee 200gr RFN gives about 800fps and is very accurate. Only requires being lubed with Lee liquid Alox. Bullets drop from mold at .430 and don’t require sizing.

Also, my favorite.45acp load is same charge of Clays under the Lee 200gr SWC. Also tumble lubed but sized to .452”.

 

[tacloader]

I was shipped 8 lb. Clays in place of Universal Clays, not a total loss, my cost was refunded and told to keep the powder. The powder sat for several months until I had time to make test loads. After the usual assortment of loads I had fantastic results with 44 Spl 4.0 grs w/240 LSWC and 45 acp 4.0 grs w/230 LRN. I gifted a pound to another reloader and he had similar results and ordered Clays to replace HP38.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

Although Clays measures about like corn flakes

Is this a negative or a positive comment?

I bought this powder at the suggestion that it will measure more accurately than Unique, as I was having difficulty keeping uniform loads with Unique from my Lee auto powder measure.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

I would think Clays could push that bullet at 700/750 FPS from a 4.2" tube.

Good. The league I shoot requires velocities from 700-1250. Min starting is 3.5 grains at 748 fps, so if I'm only going to loose 50 fps with the 4" barrel, then that's where I'll start. At this point, I'll take recoil reduction over accuracy (to a point).

 

[9mmepiphany]

Is this a negative or a positive comment?

I wasn't quite sure either.

Clays certainly meters much better than Unique and almost as well as WST

 

[Walkalong]

Yea, Clays has metered pretty well for me as well.

It is very fast, and when you get to the top it can get squirrely real fast, so be patient and work up in .1 increments. Good stuff, just work up slow, and it isn't for hot rodding anything.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

Yea, Clays has metered pretty well for me as well.

It is very fast, and when you get to the top it can get squirrely real fast, so be patient and work up in .1 increments. Good stuff, just work up slow, and it isn't for hot rodding anything.

I'm looking for the opposite of hot rod. I just need the steel target to go "ping!" and not much else.

Even with 7.5 grains of Unique, I'm ready to magna-port this gun to dampen recoil and get back to target quicker.

I shot some plain-jane, HSM 240 grn SWC Magnums in it last week, and that was a lot worse.

22 grns H110, 310 grn WFN is my "carry" round. Hope I never have to shoot it.

 

[rsrocket1]

3-4g Clays, Red Dot/Promo, Titewad, e3, Clay Dot, any of the uber fast shotgun powders fills this niche nicely. The fast powder builds up pressure quickly to prevent gas cutting, it expands the brass (not so important in revolvers as it is in semi auto guns) and with > 10,000 psi, you get consistent burns of the powder which gets you consistent velocity. It won't inherently change the accuracy between shots, but with uniform recoil from shot to shot, your reaction will be more consistent. It can be distracting to have shots vary in recoil from shot to shot.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

3-4g Clays, Red Dot/Promo, Titewad, e3, Clay Dot, any of the uber fast shotgun powders fills this niche nicely. The fast powder builds up pressure quickly to prevent gas cutting, it expands the brass (not so important in revolvers as it is in semi auto guns) and with > 10,000 psi, you get consistent burns of the powder which gets you consistent velocity. It won't inherently change the accuracy between shots, but with uniform recoil from shot to shot, your reaction will be more consistent. It can be distracting to have shots vary in recoil from shot to shot.

What is "gas cutting?"

 

[Dudedog]

22 grns H231

231 or H110?
I am guessing H110.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

231 or H110?

LOL, oops. 110 =)

 

[TfflHndn]

I've been shooting 44 specials with Clays or Clay Dot (same weight, slightly different density) with very good results. Mostly 200 grain wadcutters from Rim Rock or RNFP from SNS Casting or Xtreme. Meters fine for me.

 

[Legionnaire]

What is "gas cutting?"

Generally, “gas cutting” refers to hot gas burning or cutting into the top strap of a revolver’s frame immediately above the gap between the face of the cylinder and the forcing cone. You don’t want that. Slower powders are still burning hot when the bullet has cleared the gap.

 

[Walkalong]

He may have been talking about gas cutting as it pertains to leading. If the bullet is under groove diameter, and the pressure isn't enough to bump it up to seal, the hot high pressure gases will leak through there causing gas cutting just like a cutting torch does, stripped lead fro the side/base of the bullet and depositing it in the bore.

As far as gas cutting of the top strap, the more powder and pressure the more it tends to happen. A short burst of fast powder is not as hard on the top strap and a long burst of slower powder. Both get (Or can get) to top pressure, but one maintains it longer. That is why the full power 125 Gr .357 loads were rough n top straps compared to full power 158s. Simply more powder.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

Generally, “gas cutting” refers to hot gas burning or cutting into the top strap of a revolver’s frame immediately above the gap between the face of the cylinder and the forcing cone. You don’t want that. Slower powders are still burning hot when the bullet has cleared the gap.

He may have been talking about gas cutting as it pertains to leading. If the bullet is under groove diameter, and the pressure isn't enough to bump it up to seal, the hot high pressure gases will leak through there causing gas cutting just like a cutting torch does, stripped lead fro the side/base of the bullet and depositing it in the bore.

As far as gas cutting of the top strap, the more powder and pressure the more it tends to happen. A short burst of fast powder is not as hard on the top strap and a long burst of slower powder. Both get (Or can get) to top pressure, but one maintains it longer. That is why the full power 125 Gr .357 loads were rough n top straps compared to full power 158s. Simply more powder.

These two posts are complete revelation to me. So...my take away from this is faster powders but less of it is good. So when looking at load data, I should be comparing load weight and C.U.P. to get an understanding of power, rather than comparing bullet weight and velocity? And the objective is the trade off trying to get the most pressure for the least powder?

 

[Walkalong]

No, not the way you wrote it. Don't worry about it.

Fast powders are better for some applications (Like the low pressure .44 Spl) and slow powders are better for some applications (Like full power .357 Mag/.44 Mag)

Find a powder that gives you the accuracy and speed you are looking for and call it good.

Tweaking the burn rate of the powder can make a difference in felt recoil, but Clays would be worthless for full power .357 and H-110 would be worthless for the .44 Spl. at the low pressure it runs.

Don't over think it to start.

 

[Toprudder]

My question is about velocity and barrel length. Velocities posted on Hodgdon's site are for an 8" barrel. I'm using a 4.2" barrel. Any idea how much velocity I should subtract for half the barrel length? I doubt it's a linear extrapolation.

Sometimes there is information that is missing or unclear in load data, such as the actual equipment used, especially when it pertains to a revolver caliber and barrel length. If the published load data was derived from a universal receiver, the barrel length is measured from the breech (same as it is with a semi-auto). However, the barrel length for a revolver is the actual barrel length not including the cylinder. So, you have a little more barrel length to consider for your velocity extrapolation. You also have to consider that a revolver has a cylinder gap that will possibly cost you 75fps or so. It is hard to say just how much velocity you will lose as it depends on numerous factors.