Clint Eastwood film about Iwo Jima: Flags of Our Fathers

[CalamityJane]

Another rec for reading the book; this same author, James Bradley, also wrote "Flyboys", another true story about WWII flyers. (not the same story as the current movie by the same name)

This book, Flyboys, affected me as much, or even more, than Flags of Our Fathers. Both are excellent true stories about that war and our fathers and grandfathers. And mothers and grandmothers.

I also have a special place in my heart for that period of history of our country, and for the men and women of that time. My parents' time; my father was a POW, never talks about it.

 

[sjones63]

MY FATHER WAS THERE.

My father was there.He told me many years ago that he was about 50 yards down the hill where the flag was planted with his buddies and they had their backs to the hill looking downward to keep the japs away.He said that the first flag was a lot smaller than the second one,the famous one.He passed away on jan1,2003 at the age of 86.The last 5 years of his life he and mom were in a nursing home.One day I found a sculpture of the flag raising with a marine with his rifle at port arms and just knew I had to get it for him.When I brought it into his room at the home,he broke down and cried.He said that was the best present I could ever have given him.When he died we had a military funeral and I have the flag,the bullets and his medal.If it sounds like I am proud of him,I am.I don't think this world will ever see their like again and they are slowly dying off every day.I was in the service myself,but I couldn't hold a candle to men like him.sj

 

[.38 Special]

The gentleman who took this picture died recently, and I had the chance to learn more about him and the episode. I believe the Wikipedia article sums up the various issues very well. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raising_the_Flag_on_Iwo_Jima

Short version: It wasn't staged. It wasn't the first flag raising at that spot, and later there was a staged photo, but the one we're all familiar with is the real deal.

 

[Walter]

As any soldier knows,,,,"It's a helluva way to make a living!"

There it is...
but for some reason this old Marine just can't pass up a look at a
film like this. You would think having been there would erase any
desire to see a movie about war, but sometimes the subject is so
strong that it demands to be seen. Like "Saving Private Ryan".

Walter

 

[Texshooter]

Honestly, SCREW TELLING BOTH SIDES.

Surprised Eastwood didn't have baldwin, penn, and streisand in the movie.

I know the jap side, we all do. Wonder why they keep going to the shrine that honors their dead war criminals?

JMO

 

[.38 Special]

< edit >Never mind. Drank too much and talked myself into believing that some kind of value could come from arguing on the internet.

 

[Wags]

I read the book earlier this summer and highly recommend it for military history buffs. Very seldom do I go to the movie theaters but this may change to see this film. If the movie is anything like the book it will be a success.

 

[roscoe]

I know the jap side, we all do. Wonder why they keep going to the shrine that honors their dead war criminals?

I think you have demonstrated that, in fact, you don't know.

 

[tanksoldier]

You've displayed your ignorance pretty well.

"I am a Soldier. I fight where I am told and I win where I fight." GEN George S. Patton, Jr. I usually use it as my sig. It applies to every soldier that ever was. There is atrocity, heroism and valor on both sides of any war.

The Japanese fought for their country, people and emperor.
They were honorable according to their culture and understanding of honor... at least as much as our side.

Honestly, SCREW TELLING BOTH SIDES.

Surprised Eastwood didn't have baldwin, penn, and streisand in the movie.

I know the jap side, we all do. Wonder why they keep going to the shrine that honors their dead war criminals?

 

[Lucky]

Lest - We - Forget

Roscoe said it a little bluntly, to be sure, but he might not be wrong. It's one thing to try and understand why they did what they did, but 'forgive and forget' is not something that we should do.

Maybe in Iwo Jima they were honourable. But I'm not convinced that's representative of the whole. I did like 'Tora Tora Tora', the way it showed both sides. But they never really explain the firing on women and children and ambulances...


A 'contrasting' view of Japanese soldiers in WW2, though not at Iwo Jima.
http://www.valourandhorror.com/HK/

http://www.valourandhorror.com/HK/HK_script.php

"WALTER JENKINS (DRAMA):10:22:14:12 Everybody gets the wind up, see. Hey, the Japs are coming down the road. This is the main road in Hong Kong, right. Everybody out. Everybody gets down there, they're behind these sandbags, right. I said to the sergeant, always an efficient sergeant around there. I says "Hey, I haven't got a sandbag." "Ah, don't worry about it, it'll just get in your way..." And I'm thinking... well, that's what I want the ****ing thing for... 10:22:35:23
BOATS IN HARBOUR

NARRATION:10:22:39:28 Everyone scrambled for a place on the few boats back from Kowloon to the island. 10:22:44:19
10:22:53:00 Canadian troops commandeered the last ferry, but a 21-year-old Manitoba farm boy missed the boat. John Grey, the eldest of seven children, was captured by the Japanese, and executed. He became the first Canadian infantryman to die in combat in the Second World War. Shortly after the evacuation, the Japanese commanders paraded through the city of Kowloon with some of their other prisoners. And then most of the commanders turned the town over to their soldiers. All Chinese women were declared to be prostitutes and free. The raping and pillaging began. 10:23:36:06
AERIAL VIEW OF HARBOUR
10:23:44:05 The Canadians just on the other side of this harbour could hear it all. 10:23:47:22

CLAYTON:10:23:49:10 It was horrible - the screams and all night long was just.... I don't know what they were doing when they got in there. I guess they were looting and everything else. But that whole city was just one massive scream all night long. Just raised the hair on the back of your head. 10:24:02:28"




"NARRATION:10:44:26:10 Bob Clayton was upstairs in St. Stephen's when the Japanese closed in on the hospital at 5:30 a.m. on Christmas day. 10:44:39:28

CLAYTON:10:44:35:00 The war wounded were laying in bed there. And just before they broke in on the hospital, there was a hell of a commotion outside, and I heard a guy holler "For Christ's sake, don't let those bastards get in this hospital." When the Japanese came through the door, the doctors met them. And they had their hands up. 10:44:52:28

LAURIE MACKAY (DRAMA):10:45:01:15 The doctors tried to surrender the hospital, but they killed them. The Japanese soldiers started killing all around me. I said "Oh, my God, this is it." I pulled the blankets over my head. One Jap ran over me to bayonet the guy in the next bed. I rolled up my mattress and I made a run for the door. And I was hit over the head. I went arse over teakettle. Don't remember a thing 'til I came to and this Red Cross nurse was trying to stop this Japanese soldier from killing us. So the soldier grabs her by the throat and drags her away. 10:46:00:18

NARRATION:10:46:10:22 The surviving nurses, and soldiers like Laurie Mackay and Bob Clayton, were dragged down this corridor in the school's dormitory. Separating the nurses, the Japanese jammed more than 60 wounded and terrified soldiers into this dorm. One after the other soldiers were taken out, tortured and dismembered with swords. The raping of the nurses began. 10:46:39:10

LAURIE MACKAY (DRAMA):10:46:42:00 They kept coming back to the room and firing into it. The fear had really set into me. I had my head down. And this old first world war vet says to me "Look, kid, we're going to die today. But one thing we're going to do. We're going to die like Canadians. Don't be scared o'them." 10:47:13:08

CLAYTON:10:47:18:00 It was Christmas Day and you're thinking about home. I thought of my mother a million times and I knew she'd be going crazy, absolutely crazy. Which I found out after. Anyway, you do stupid things, and I sat down... sitting there on the floor and I kept saying "Ma, I'm all right... Ma, I'm all right..." 10:47:52:15

LAURIE MACKAY (DRAMA):10:47:59:05 Then this Jap soldier came in, and he says "Canada..." And I says "Yeah, the hell with you. Go ahead, you bastard, kill me." He looks at me. He starts kicking me and then he says, "Canada... cowboy?" I says to myself "What's going on here?" So I say "yeah, cowboy." So he steps back, and he twirls his hand over his head like a lariat and he yells Hoo-hoo-hoo-yip-yip-yip. And then he tells me to stand up,... and quick draw. All night he kept bringing back his friends and telling me to quick draw. 10:49:29:08"



NARRATION:11:18:27:20 Many of the Japanese that live and work in the neighbourhood near the old prison camp have a different view of the treatment given Canadians and other prisoners. Eighty-year-old Mr. Kuwato worked in the shipyard during the war, and he stayed on for many years with the NKK Company. He was interested in meeting the Canadian veterans, and he even had some souvenir pictures that he wanted to show them. 11:18:53:08
11:19:00 There were pictures of the POWs lined up outside their barracks; pictures of the prisoners supposedly having a party. 11:19:11:18

MR. KUWATO:11:19:12:00 Christmas party... 11:19:13:22
CLAYTON11:19:15:00 Christmas party?... Ah so. Tell him they don't look too happy. There isn't any of them smiling. 11:19:21:02

NARRATION:11:19:22:25 They were old propaganda pictures from the neighbouring American POW camp, for which the prisoners were forced to stage happy-looking occasions. 11:19:31:08

CLAYTON:11:19:35:15 Yeah, at Christmas. 11:19:36:20

NARRATION:11:19:37:18 Mr. Kuwato wanted to point out the very good treatment given prisoners. 11:19:41:20

MR.KUWATO:11:19:47:10 (voice of interpreter) They received many cakes, or something … 11:19:48:26

CLAYTON:11:19:48:28 Many cakes? Tell him they were lucky. We didn't get any. 11:19:52:19
11:19:52:19 INTERPRETER (speaks in Japanese)
CLAYTON11:19:55:15 Was he a guard there, or … 11:19:58:00
11:19:59:22 INTERPRETER (in Japanese)

NARRATION:11:20:06:10 He was a guard. He pointed himself out in the picture. He was the captain of the guards. But he said that he only worked in administration. 11:20:14:10

CLAYTON:11:20:16:20 I would like to know: how does he think that the POWs were treated in his camp? What did he think of the treatment? 11:20:23:12

11:20:23:19 KUWATO & INTERPRETER (in Japanese) 11:20:30:00

NARRATION:11:20:30:05 Mr. Kuwato allowed as how there were some problems there. 11:20:33:18

INTERPRETER:11:20:34:20 Sometimes a difference of the culture... and the customs. 11:20:37:22

CLAYTON:11:20:38:10 It isn't a custom to be hungry all the time, dear. I guess a lot of POWs died in his camp? 11:20:43:26

INTEPRETER:11:20:51:10 Just one, he remembers. 11:20:52:12

CLAYTON:11:20:52:15 One?

INTERPRETER:11:20:56:15 He got sick and died. 11:20:57:22

CLAYTON:11:20:57:15 Oh, he got sick and died? I think this gentleman has a poor memory, dear. Well, many men died in our camp, dear. Many, many. I took four out one time myself to the crematorium - in a cart. If you got pneumonia, you just died. So it had to be the same in his camp. 11:21:14:28

INTERPRETER:11:21:22:25 He never heard of that. 11:21:23:25
CLAYTON11:21:23:26 He never heard about that...? 11:21:24:22
INTERPRETER:11:21:26:10 He didn't know that, no. 11:21:27:20

CLAYTON:11:21:28:00 That's all right....They never remember, you know... 11:21:31:15

INTERPRETER:11:21:35:18 Maybe the difference of the culture or something... they couldn't understand each other. That's why there's a possibility... 11:21:42:10

CLAYTON:11:21:42:10 We couldn't understand them either... 11:21:43:16

 

[lysander]

Inevitably this thread is going to get locked down following that last run of comments...we may be better suited talking about Eastwood's film and how accurate it is/isn't in terms of the weaponry presented during the battle at Iwo Jima.

As far as the atrocities committed in the Pacific theater...how about we just call it a push. Nobody had clean hands...they bombed Pearl Harbor, had Bataan, did horrible things to the Chinese, etc. We threw 150,000 Japanese-Americans into prison camps and saw their land and assets sold off, then to end the war dropped atom bombs on two civilian targets (many would argue uneccesarily) instantly killing vast numbers of non-combatants and contributing to later deaths from radiation, cancer, burns, etc.

Forgiving is not forgetting and empathy is not weakness...but both are certainly steps towards understanding our mutual humanity and preventing future conflict.

Their bad, our bad....all bad...the trick is in future avoidance and that isn't accomplished by ignoring the other side of the coin.

 

[Sistema1927]

The revisionist historians have won.

"The United States is just as bad as....."

Makes me want to

 

[Harve Curry]

I was driving through the Gila Indian Reservation a couple of years ago. There had just been a parade/memorial celebration. Family and veterans were there and some relations and friends Ira Hays. Anyone traveling between Phoenix and Tucson should get off the interstate and go to the cemetary near Sacaton. One of the first American soldiers killed in the recent War was a girl from this reservation. It lists the American Indians from there since WWI.

 

[Harve Curry]

QUOTE: sjones63

"My father was there.He told me many years ago that he was about 50 yards down the hill where the flag was planted with his buddies and they had their backs to the hill looking downward to keep the japs away.He said that the first flag was a lot smaller than the second one,the famous one.He passed away on jan1,2003 at the age of 86.The last 5 years of his life he and mom were in a nursing home.One day I found a sculpture of the flag raising with a marine with his rifle at port arms and just knew I had to get it for him.When I brought it into his room at the home,he broke down and cried.He said that was the best present I could ever have given him.When he died we had a military funeral and I have the flag,the bullets and his medal.If it sounds like I am proud of him,I am.I don't think this world will ever see their like again and they are slowly dying off every day.I was in the service myself,but I couldn't hold a candle to men like him.sj "

That last sentence of yours, yes you could. As long as there are people like you there will be men like that. It's the timing and being put in the situation.

My Grandfather was in the trenches of WWI and cried when he told me some of it when he was 81 years old.
Bill Raftery, who taught me horse shoeing, went up Pt du Hoc on D-Day with the 2nd Rangers wouldn't go back to visit 50 years later. When asked why he told me "All I left there was alot of good friends and bad memories."
We have good soldiers doing it now, we just haven't heard their stories yet.

 

[m1aman]

i have heard that the movie starts off great, and soon turns into a movie about racism and ira hayes (sp). if so, i am disappointed with eastwood and his bowing to the hollywood left. if not, i will catch it on showtime next year.

 

[Texshooter]

If anyone thinks the japs conducted the war with "honor", then they obviously don't know or they are brain dead.

 

[offthepaper]

yes, war is hell.

 

[Lucky]

texas shooter and sistema, I think that it must be us who are crazy

How could you question it, didn't you read? They gave prisoners many cakes . Only 1 guy died in the prison camp. Japanese text books skip over any WW2 atrocities, I guess because people don't need to be dredging up the past. The cultures are a little different, that's all. Stop being racist or ethnocentric or whatever, and concede that the Japanese were doing good. What's more, it's probably our fault that they ever acted badly, we're to blame, clearly.:banghead:



I think what has been exhibited is referred to as 'moral relativism', no? People saying that bad here and bad there means that neither was really bad?

What's worse is that Japanese actions are being justified by the reactions they caused. A man is raping a woman, and when a bystander tries to intervene the rapist pulls a gun and fires on the good samaritan. The samaritan has a gun and fires back. What Japanese apologists are saying is taht since both guys are shooting guns at each other, they're basically morally equal.

 

[.38 Special]

< edit >Never mind. Drank too much and talked myself into believing that some kind of value could come from arguing on the internet.

 

[m1aman]

ask the chinese how honorable the japs were. or ask the filippinos. heck ask american soldiers!

beheading unarmed people is honorable.

 

[.38 Special]

< edit >Never mind. Drank too much and talked myself into believing that some kind of value could come from arguing on the internet.

 

[Lucky]

.38 spl, So when faced with reality being different from what you've been told, your reaction is to retreat into sarcasm, and hope rationalisation and denial can bring you through.

They can't. The Japanese were monsters, doing monstrous things. Wrongs done to other peoples in other places will never change that.

 

[Harve Curry]

I don't know of any jap POW's that were starved to death, beheaded, or forced marched.
Read history ,read first hand accounts by soldiers that were there. Some you can still get an autographed copy from. Read "Lt Ramsey's War" , about the war in the Phillipines by Ed Ramsey of Orange County California. He has a website.

 

[.38 Special]

< edit >Never mind. Drank too much and talked myself into believing that some kind of value could come from arguing on the internet.

 

[.38 Special]

< edit >Never mind. Drank too much and talked myself into believing that some kind of value could come from arguing on the internet.