Clogging The Bullet's Hollowpoint Stops Expansion. Problem Solved???

[*Kemosabe*]

According to some of the threads I've read, my SD ammo (Federal Hydra Shok) is antiquated in cold climates because heavy clothing will clog the bullet's hollow cavity and stop it from expanding.

Hornady supposedly has solved the problem with their FlexLock™ bullet ("eliminates clogging and aids bullet expansion."). Is this true and are there any other brands that are as good or better?

PS - I realize that it's summer, but with the ammo shortage I might be needing some lead time to locate it!

 

[Wil Terry]

TRUE with some but not others. CORBON POW'RBALL is quite excellent.

 

[230RN]

That's why I switch to ball in the winter.

 

[PistolPete45]

Yup something to think about that and caliber . You can what if all day long , IMHO you carry what is appropriate for the weather . if its cold you get to wear something that will conceal a larger pistol , longer barrel more penetration . Hot out less clothing to deal with ,, Say you like a J frame 38 in the summer and you can switch to a 4 inch 357 in the winter .

 

[Skribs]

There are several brands of ammo that have either...
1) Engineered the bullet for more reliable expansion OR
2) Made the nose "solid" to prevent clogging, either with a plastic tip or with EFMG (expanding FMJ) ammo

You can probably find gel tests online for whatever ammo you're looking at and see how reliably it expanded in bare gel and in 4 layers of denim.

However, if it fails to expand...it will still go through the target. It will just make a smaller hole. Personally, I carry FMJ rounds in my smaller pistols (.380 ACP and under), because I figure they'll do the job fairly well.

 

[BSA1]

This is why you should test your ammunition in your gun.

For example I use Hornady Critical Defense 38 Special+ P in a Taurus M-85 (5 shot J-Frame) with 2” barrel Before I started using it I conducted side by side tests from the same gun between Federal Hydra-Shoks and the Critical Defense from the Taurus. I tested the ammunition by shooting rounds into water and through 4 layers of cotton T-shirt over 4 layers of demin jean material over a gallon water jug. The results were half of the Hydra-Shoks expanded. The ones the did expand did so unevenly.

All of the Critical Defense bullets expanded 100% with all of the petals opened and pushed back for full expansion.

While the test materials clearly are not the same as the human body it did prove that the Critical Defense hollowpoints will not clog up with material and fail to expand.

As a result of my testing I have selected Hornady Critical Defense for use in this gun.

 

[Arizona_Mike]

That's why I switch to ball in the winter.

So you prefer definitely won't expand to might not expand?

Mike

 

[Skribs]

So you prefer definitely won't expand to might not expand?

Mike

Definitely won't expand but costs less and feeds more reliably vs. might not expand, might run into feeding issues and might break the bank.

 

[rodregier]

I've seen a lot of the new gell testing have some layers of denim in front of the block
in one of the sequences. Nice consistent material that stands in for various kinds of clothing that can clog up a hollowpoint. A lot of the newer projectile designs *without* a cap are now configured to deal with the clogging issue.

The current FBI test protocol (which the major ammunition manufacturers want to pass) has this as one of the tests:

http://greent.com/40Page/general/fbitest.htm

Test Event 2: Heavy Clothing

The gelatin block is covered with four layers of clothing: one layer of cotton T-shirt material (48 threads per inch); one layer of cotton shirt material (80 threads per inch); a 10 ounce down comforter in a cambric shell cover (232 threads per inch); and one layer of 13 ounce cotton denim (50 threads per inch). This simulates typical cold weather wear. The block is shot at ten feet, measured from the muzzle to the front of the block.

 

[hartcreek]

I would take a round or two and fill the hollows with rubber cement or silicone and then try against a denim target.

 

[blarby]

Or, you can fill the tip with silicone, initiating hydraulic expansion on any target....


Feel free to test it yourself.

I see hart beat me to it while I was eatin my lunch...

 

[CWL]

So you prefer definitely won't expand to might not expand?

Mike

Sure, expansion increases the diameter of a bullet, but if may decrease penetration (good & bad) and it may cause bullets to fragment (bad) as well as tumble away from your aim point.

Realistically, don't waste time thinking that expansion will stop an assault. FMJs will do plenty if hitting COM & CNS.

Expansion is just adding "icing to the cake", but don't forget that the "cake" does most of the damage.

I see people so wrapped-up with seeking "magic bullets" that they lose focus on the main point: reliably hitting your targets.

 

[Skribs]

Expansion is just adding "icing to the cake", but don't forget that the "cake" does most of the damage.

I like the wording of this. It also applies to diabetes if you take out the bullet metaphor.

I see people so wrapped-up with seeking "magic bullets" that they lose focus on the main point: reliably hitting your targets.

I wonder how long Avada Kedavra bullets would be on the shelves before Brady et al got them banned.

 

[gamestalker]

I conducted some tests as follows, and although I have tested the Hydra Shock, I didn't document the results, though I do recall they performed well.

The following was tests were conducted using full power reloads.

Weapons- S&W 66-5 / 2-1/2" barrel
Taurus 608 - 4" compensated

Cartridges tested-
.357 mag.
.38 special

Wound path was a 16" cardboard box lined with garbage bags, packed with wet & tightly rolled up denim, box filled completely with water, denim was allowed to soak for about 15 minutes.

Bullets tested:

Gold Dot 158 gr. - .357 mag

Gold Dot Short Barrel - 135 gr. - 38 special

XTP - 125 gr. - 38 special / .357 mag.

XTP - 158 gr. - .357 mag.

Nosler - 158 gr. JHP's - .357 mag.

All of these bullets performed 100% with regard to total expansion.

I did some some partial fragmentation with the 125 gr. XTP's fired using +p 38 special loads. No extensive fragmentation however, just a pedal or two shearing off.

The Nosler JHP's expanded well, but there was also some jacket separation and fragmentation with 2 projectiles. The other 4 performed very well.

Penetration - All of the above bullets completely penetrated through the 16" denim / water test and slightly embedded into the soft dirt powdered dirt.

As for Hydra Shock, I did some identical testing with factory 38 special, but I didn't document the results. From what I remember, they functioned as intended, but I seem to recall one that experienced jacket separation.

Now that I see some have a definite interest in this respect, I will conduct some more tests, and possible a bit more elaborate to include 9mm, 38 special, .357 mag. and 40 S&W in the near future. I will post the results for those interested. In those tests I will clog the tips on some, and fill some with silicone, as well use unaltered projectiles.

GS

 

[230RN]

^ That would be good to see.

Originally Posted byArizona_Mike :

Originally Posted by 230RN
That's why I switch to ball in the winter.

So you prefer definitely won't expand to might not expand?

But FMJs will definitely will penetrate coats 'n shirts 'n cell phones. (I can't tell if the quoted remark was a joke or not, but I see your point.)

Oiginally posted by CWL:

I see people so wrapped-up with seeking "magic bullets" that they lose focus on the main point: reliably hitting your targets.

And ball rounds are usually more available, while one's favorite high-tech bullet might not be found on the store shelves. The last time I looked for my favorite hollowpoint cartridges for SD in my J-frame, they were scarce as rattlesnake feathers. When I finally found them, I trashed my budget and bought three boxes.

Terry, 230RN

 

[Arizona_Mike]

Assuming it goes all the way through a .454 projectile expanded to .750 is going to disrupt 2.7 time more tissue than one that does not expand .750^2 / .454^2.

That cake is mostly icing.

Basically we want a bullet that is not going to pass all the way through soft tissue (even a .380 FMJ can do that) but break bone if it needs to. That requires sophisticated design far beyond just a penetration vs. expansion tradeoff.

Mike

 

[BSA1]

I disagree.

A bullet that punches completely through the body leaves two holes to let air in and blood out along with destroying everything in it's path.

There are simply too many variables with the human body for hydro-static shock to work consistently on everyone.

p.s. Feel free to disagree.

 

[Skribs]

A bullet that punches completely through the body leaves two holes to let air in and blood out along with destroying everything in it's path.

I look at it differently, but come to the same conclusion: a round that stays inside on an oblique shot will exit on a straight shot; and a round that will stay in on a straight shot might fail to penetrate deep enough on an oblique shot. The "you want it to stay in" crowd, IMO, doesn't account for this variance.

 

[browningguy]

I shoot the Hornady FTX bullets in my .380's, no feeding problems at all and quite accurate in the three guns I have tried them in. The gel tests I've seen seem to show decent expansion and penetration no matter the layers of clothing.

 

[rcmodel]

A lessor known trick from the pre-Flex-Tip bullet invention back in the day was to fill bullets like the Hydra-Shock with melted candle wax.

Once it hardens, it will stay there during feeding & handling.
But instantly turns to a liquid filled HP cavity during the heat of compression & resulting expansion on target.
The HP can't clog with clothing fibers if it is already filled with incompressible liquid wax.

And the liquid wax acts just like body fluids to expand the bullet once it makes it through the clothing and meets real liquid body fluid resistance necessary for expansion.

We knew that 25-30 years ago.
Why it took the manufactures this long to re-discover it, I don't know??

rc

 

[Panzerschwein]

That's why I switch to ball in the winter.

I don't understand why anyone would do that.

You do understand that if the hollow point does clog, that it will essentially act like ball ammo? But, the hollow point also at least has a chance of expansion, and many designs today do quite well against heavy clothing.

Now if you carry a .25 or .32 or other small caliber, than carrying ball especially during winter does make sense. But with 9mm and above, there's no reason not to carry hollow points all year round. At best you have ball performance if the bullet fails to expand, if not you have all the benefits of the hollow point such as greater wounding and less chance of over penetration. JMHO.

YMMV.

 

[rcmodel]

<<<<
This too!

JHP IS ball, if it fails to expand.

But if it does, your chances are much better then if it doesn't.

rc

 

[BSA1]

This is why this topic is so interesting. There are so many variables just from calibers alone. I believe that enough penetration is the most importment part bullet performance (The FBI agrees with me). For this reason I use FMJ'S in .380 / 9x18 and lean towards the 124 gr. JHP in 9mm.

 

[Leanwolf]

CWL - " ... Realistically, don't waste time thinking that expansion will stop an assault. FMJs will do plenty if hitting COM & CNS. "

Yep. Sgt. Alvin York seemed to get along pretty well with .45 ACP FMJ bullets, didn't he?

L.W.

 

[jmr40]

That's why I switch to ball in the winter.

No reason to switch. Odds are slim to none that it won't expand. Even if it doesn't you are still no better off with ball ammo.

Sgt. Alvin York seemed to get along pretty well with .45 ACP FMJ bullets, didn't he?

And before firearms folks got by just fine with spears and swords. Doesn't prove it is the best tool for the job.

Sure FMJ or ball ammo works most of the time. But it has been proven beyond any doubt that expanding bullets work better. There are no downsides to using modern well designed HP bullets. I understand that hasn't always been true, but this isn't 1970.