C'mon, guys. (accuracy claims)

[Arkansas Paul]

People generally want to make themselves sound better than they really are. Most of us have been guilty of this at some point. I have shot several sub moa groups and even a couple of one holers, but these are the exception, not the rule. I don't consider myself a great shot, but if I couldn't keep it under 2", I would be worried.

 

[twofifty]

Here is the link to krochus' Summer 2009 THR hunting rifle match:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=465977

 

[twofifty]

Mr. T, glad you like it the idea. I would be interested in knowing the outcome.

We have a good bunch of guys and gals, and we all live within 5-10 minutes of the range so it is easy to get a turnout. We all reload, so we also share our experience in that respect. The real payoff other than the fun and bragging rights, is being able to take ethical shots on game.

Btw, there are 3 R&G clubs in the valley, each with their own range. Before the snow leaves the ground we hold a yearly interclub match. Each club takes a turn at hosting:...campfire...hot dogs...BS stories...etc.

Each club has its own match format that their guys are most familiar with, but our club shoots all the time and the others don't. Each club wagers $200. 3/4 of the time my club pockets the money...which goes to habitat conservation work.

 

[R.W.Dale]

Here is the link to krochus' Summer 2009 THR hunting rifle match:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=465977

Don't make the match into something it's not. While some of the results are outstanding they are only ONE group per submission and thus are only an example of the absolute best single group

Also note the abyssmal turnout, and this was one of the more popular matches

 

[twofifty]

You had a better turnout in previous years?

Btw, kudos for going to the trouble you did.

As to the differences between our internet groups and our paper groups....isn't it said that even a blind squirrel will find a 1/4" group every now and then?

 

[Cosmoline]

I'm referring to the "I just picked up my Mosin-Nagant, drove to the range and shot clover leafs with spam can ammo" nonsense.

With the right Mosin and the right ammo, it's entirely possible. As far as good groups only coming from the bench, this is nonsense. Off hand is difficult I grant you but I can consistently get as good or better groups from my kneel or prone than off a bench.

Many of the folks who dismiss the potential accuracy in the old war rifles simply haven't spent enough time finding the right loads. It can be a real challenge, but that's much of the fun. I posted recently about my latest 91/30 which shot like absolute garbage with a bunch of loads then locked in tight when I went with Wolf light FMJ. Try shooting a K31 or 1911 with handloads or the recent production stuff and you're likely to get middling results. Go with GP11 and prepare to stand back in awe. Shoot light ball 7.65 Argie from an 1891 and you may find the results very bad. But recreate the original heavy RN load and it will sing for you. Military rifles in particular have been made for a particular load in mind. It's what the builders had on hand when they were making it. Sometimes well over a century ago. You can't just cap off a few random rounds and purport to dismiss every claim of good accuracy others have made. It takes years to get to know these old warriors.

 

[twofifty]

Quoting Cosmoline:
"Off hand is difficult I grant you but I can consistently get as good or better groups from my kneel or prone than off a bench."

Now that's unusual.

 

[blackops]

You have to take into account what kind of rifles are shooting these sub-moa groups. You can be a trained professional, but if you don't have the rifle you aint shootin sub-moa. If you put a guy that knows how to handle a rifle behind an AI or a full custom Remington I would expect sub-moa. So is it possible of course, but I do believe sub-moa consistently isn't for everyone.

 

[NWCP]

While there are many a tale told around the shooting bench at the rifle range sometimes the MOA gods are with you and you actually pull off a decent group. When practicing at the range whether it be 50 yards with a .22LR, or 100 yards with a .308 I set up targets that approximate the kill zone on whatever game I'm interested in pursuing. With my CZ 527 .223 at 100 yards I set up Shoot N See p-dogs. I then make it my mission to place shots from a similar stance I'd take in the field into the kill zone on the p-dog. If I am shooting well I'll then move it out to 200 yards and do the same. If using my VZ58 7.72x39 I will place a human silhouette at 100 yards and shoot for center of mass. Target shooting is fun, but practical shooting is more productive for me. I have a .17HMR that I have shot MOA and sub MOA with at 100 yards from the bench on a Harris bipod. It is a repeatable group providing the the wind is calm and I do my part. I can't pull it off consistently, but I can do it all the same. I still prefer to set up the p-dog, or other size appropriate targets and aim for the kill zones usually from a sitting, or prone shooting position.

 

[General Geoff]

Now that's unusual.

I shoot far better prone than from a bench.

 

[MachIVshooter]

I think hitting a bucket a 100 yards is pleanty good.

HUH?
With a handgun maybe.

Have you ever shot an SMLE Jungle Carbine or a Carcano Carbine? Believe me, 5-8 MOA is normal with these. I do have handguns that shoot straighter.

That said, not many of us could go 10 for 10 on a 5 gallon pale at 100 yards with a pistol without benching it, and even then, it'd be tough with an open-sighted handgun. Have I hit 12 inch tall 4x4 pine blocks at that range with a handgun, shooting offhand? Yup. Could I do it every time? Hell no. About once per magazine if I'm lucky.

 

[Snakum]

I sometimes wonder about all the sub-moa claims, as well. When I'm shooting for groups I don't shoot if there's wind and I do a full bench setup with bags and elbow pads and a funny hat and clown shoes ... the whole schmere. And across seven or eight rifles I shoot regularly, from 7600s to old 700s to 70s to AKMs I think I might have had one or two sub MOA, three shot groups with a cold bore for all three shots using handloads and when the stars were perfectly aligned. My model 70 has done it at 100, and the 7600 has come close (surprisingly). But I'm generally happy with 1.5 inches for hunting rifles and 3 inches for service rifles.

But that said, the quality and accuracy of bolt guns today is quite surprising. All those folks shooting sub MOA groups with the new Marlin XS7 and XL7s can't all the lying. I have a friend who has done it with two different Marlins in .243 so there must be something to it. T/Cs Venture is known for shooting sub MOA groups with good ammo. So who knows ... the sub MOA club may be completely truthful. It's a wonderful time to be a gun nut.

I can't shoot better than 2 or 3 MOA in my hunting positions anyway ... so what do I care.

 

[U.S.SFC_RET]

I was shooting a Mosin Sniper remade in the Ukraine. The groupings were 2.5 inches and the guy looking at my target was "astounded" at the accuracy.
I was giving that 2x4 gun all she was worth. Accurate enough.
I have a 1903A3 with some rust damage down the top of the bore about 3 inches. She shoots 2 inches easily all day long.
I have a 22 mag chuckster that will group 2 or 3 shots within MOA but will string right after that to the eleven O clock position and start walking shots.
I possess an M1 Garand that shoots 3" with CMP ammunition.
I had a 7mm mag that would print MOA with handloads and traded it to my brother.
I have a German 22 military trainer that "rids" turtles from my brother's front lake at 80 yard head shots. His lake borders a swamp.
I have a 30 30 pre 64 with a williams rear sight that can take out a half dollar at 50 yards standing.
According to the internet I am probably a horrible shot.
I am not complaining.

 

[U.S.SFC_RET]

It takes years to get to know these old warriors.

That is a fact. Shooting is an art and a passion. Getting to know what you have in your hands takes time.

 

[The Sarge]

What does the sign say above the entrance to BassPro Shops?
Welcome hunters fisherman and other liars
I'm not a "bench shooter".....I shoot once a week minimum and have many rifles/handguns....my main purpose is to practice getting a "kill shot" off without hesitation....a kill shot to me is one that is accurate enough to hit vitals....be it an inch or two off "bullseye".....
Most of my shots (freehand/no sand bags or rest involved) are within the 3" be it from 200 yards to 25' rifle/pistol.....
I save a lot of time not having to take pictures of my target/hosting said picture and posting it all over the internet

 

[Offfhand]

Well, for the record, there really are shooters and rifles that can shoot sub-MOA. I just read an article in the latest Hodgdon Annual about the winner of a 2009 rifle championship using their new powder. Over two days of shooting at 100 and 200 yards his group size average was LESS than .2 MOA! And the wind was blowing! There's a picture of the rifle with article, looks like SS barrel and action and stock looks like real wood.

 

[Hatterasguy]

Oh come on my shot out 40 year old communist rejected junk AK can shoot 1moa at 200 yards easy, all the time with spam can ammo.

On another forum their was actualy a guy who got pissed when people called him on that line.:banghead:

 

[Art Eatman]

My Wby MK V took some tweaking to turn it into a real rifle. Once I'd messed with it, however, it was a reliable 3/4 MOA '06. I went through the same sort of messing with my Sako Forester .243 and it wound up as a 5/8-3/4 MOA critter.

NIB "goodies"? Three Rugers. A 77 in .243 that shot 3/4 MOA for five-shot groups with Rem 80-grain CoreLoks. A heavy-barrelled Swift which was 3/8 MOA. And now, a 77 Mk II in .223 that's a half-MOA shooter.

My 700 Ti in 7mm08 has been 3/4 MOA from the git-go, with both factory and handloads.

I had a Bushie Match Target that would shoot half-MOA until you got bored with it. Didn't seem to care what ammo either, from 55-grain anybody's on up to a round-nosed 70-grain batch I'd inherited from my uncle's reloads of over twenty years before.

Had a post-'64 Model 70 in .264Mag that was sub-MOA.

Sure, had some that I couldn't make shoot to suit me, but I've done okay in the world of sub-MOA hunting rifles. It ain't magic, although luck plays a part.

 

[MJ]

Target shooting, lovely work if you can get it. The only two things that count are your cold shot and what you do in the light of the flares when 20 bad guys are are under 100 yards and coming hard.

Have a nice Tet ladies.

...MJ...
.67/68.

 

[AWDeanSR]

I am not a great shooter by any stretch...but I took my Armalite M15A4 with a battle sight zero out the other day. I was using 30 rounds of American eagle 55 grain xm 193's with iron sights at 25 yards, my groupings were good enough for me! Stil need to get it zeroed in though!



I do agree with the op, there are a lot of unrealistic accuracy claims made on many firearms related forums.

 

[_N4Z_]

Quote:
It takes years to get to know these old warriors.

That is a fact. Shooting is an art and a passion. Getting to know what you have in your hands takes time.

Again I concur. For all the success pics I post here and elsewhere, there are many many tests that ranged from just OK, to downright horrible. Don't take pics of those and don't usually post about them either. Sometimes, but not usually. I've been keeping a log book of everything I try in each rifle for years. The keepers are typically few and far between.
It is the fun of trying all the different combo's, and the thrill when you find something that gives good, repeatable results.

 

[rallyhound]

My 67 year old neighbor is pretty convinced he can shoot a 1.5 inch group at 600 yards with his Garand.

I offered to pay his way to Camp Perry but so far he hasn't taken me up on the offer.

 

[MachIVshooter]

My 67 year old neighbor is pretty convinced he can shoot a 1.5 inch group at 600 yards with his Garand.

Parhaps he means by using the Garand as a monopod for a telephoto-lensed camera and attending a BR match. lol

 

[Welding Rod]

On the flip side, there are some on the shooting forums who seem to think 1 MOA is some kind of almost unrealistic feat. "Show me 10 consecutive 10 shot groups before I'll believe it" or something like that.

Just because the shooter can't shoot MOA, or half MOA, or whatever every single time doesn't mean the rifle can't do it. Some shooters will continue to shoot when the wind kicks up or shoot ammo that isn't capable of high levels of accuracy. Some shooters don't understand parallax. Some shooters don't understand how a barrel walks as it heats up due to rapid firing. Some shooters don't understand how chamber temp can effect rounds allowed to heat in a hot chamber. Some shooters don't understand the difference good glass of adequate magnification makes... or the human factor behind the adage "Aim small to shoot small".

The point is there are optic, ammo, human, environmental, and procedural factors that if addressed, make higher levels of accuracy achievable.

Personally, most of the time, when someone claims they have a sub MOA gun or whatever, I just assume they understand these factors, have reasonable skill, and do their "record" shooting accordingly.

I understand what you are saying about the absurd claims. However at the same time, I do tend to question the shooting abilities of the few who offhandedly question every claim to what seems to me to be realistically achievable results.

 

[Casefull]

I was shooting pistol once...in the desert not at a range...there were some guys shooting at bottles with a 44 something revolver and they were watching me with my used 1911 colt shooting at shotgun shell casings on the ground and saying there pistol was a piece of crap. I asked them if I could give it a try. I broke their bottles quite easily and handed the pistol back. They did not say a word. My point is that hitting what you are shooting at whether an elk running through the woods at 180 yds or a squirl in a tree is what the firearm is made for. I have many rifles that will shoot sub moa from prone or a bench. I shot a fox last week with a holdover of about 12 inches with my kimber 22lr. The fox ran 20 yds spun in a circle ran some more and fell over dead. I had hit him in the heart with that little round at about 90 yds offhand. That was a better shot for me than my 1/2 in group with my 7 mag off a bench.