CMP 1911's another step closer

[Tirod]

With the passage of NDAA 2018 by the House, the CMP will be one step closer to selling the 1911's they have in storage: https://www.ammoland.com/2017/07/cmp-sales-1911s-one-step-closer-house-passage/

Two changes are in the House language, it makes the transfer mandatory, and it removes the 10,000 a year cap. It still has to be reconciled with Senate action to be passed to the President for his signature.

It's going to be some time yet until the CMP accepts them, sorts them out, and starts listing them. As previously discussed the better grade models will be auctioned at current retails which seem to be dominated by collectors.

There is of yet any confirmation of a new "Trench Grade" class of guns which would resemble those on gun show tables assembled from largely cast off parts with $1,100 price tags. By anecdotal observation there seems to be a glut in that market if auction sites are an indicator. If Garand sales are any evidence, those auction sites will likely have flippers competing to see who can overprice their "rare" Government models with at least three Ordnance rebuild markings and sample parts from Remington, Ithaca, and certainly, SInger.

Yeah, I'm little cynical about the whole thing.

It also goes to selling them all instead of rationing them out, which makes for speculation about why. Once gone, and with Garand supplies dwindling, it would seem to accelerate the complete lack of arms to be sold at all by the CMP. There is no known effort being made to allow the alteration of M16's currently in the hands of the Government for civilian sales. That leaves the CMP with no foreseeable future if firearms sales are to finance it.

If we can't allow the alteration of M16's then there will be no sales in the future. It's a closed door.

 

[MAKster]

While you are correct that once the Garands and any 1911s are all sold, the CMP will be out of the firearms selling business. But that was never the reason why CMP and its predecessor was created. Selling firearms was just a means to fund its operations without receiving direct funding from the taxpayers. Even after firearm sales end, CMP will have sufficient funding to continue on for decades. According to the most recent financial statement I found on the internet, CMP has assets totaling $233,609,054. Most of that is in a permanent endowment.

 

[General Geoff]

with brand new RIA 1911s selling for ~$400, any of the 1911s that will be sold by CMP will probably be collector market only.

 

[kimberkid]

Did the CMP ever sell its wealth of M14's as parts kits?

If not I don't see why not ... same could be done with the M16's ... just destroy the receiver along with the FCG

 

[CoalTrain49]

with brand new RIA 1911s selling for ~$400, any of the 1911s that will be sold by CMP will probably be collector market only.

I agree. Not many people are going to pay a thousand dollars for a rattle trap shooter. Those will go to collectors who will then try to flip them at gun shows and on the internet. Can you imagine paying 2-3K for a battle worn abused Marine 1911-A1 less than 5 years old. All those went to collectors. They didn't care what they looked like or even if they were functional.

 

[jrmiddleton425]

Two changes are in the House language, it makes the transfer mandatory, and it removes the 10,000 a year cap.

Even after all that, the Army can still say there are none available for transfer in any given year. The CMP has stated many times that they haven't received any, and they don't have a timetable to receive them. Their FAQ page as of today, 15 July 2017, still says they are NOT authorized to receive handguns.

 

[Tirod]

It's been reported by eye witnesses on the ground the guns are in storage on site. They are just not "titled" to the CMP - therefore they don't have any.

As for selling M16 parts kits it's moot - has their been ANY indication the CMP was thinking or doing something along those lines?

Physically, the full auto disconnector can be removed and the remaining fire control parts are legal to own. Remove the pin it is fixed on from the lower, what you have left is the hole, which is where the BATF has to balk as somebody told them "once a machine gun always a machine gun." Drill the hole oversized and huck bolt it.

It's really not the mechanics of the issue, trying to make either a dewat or semi auto lower to full auto with milspec parts is a violation regardless and not easily done. It's entirely politics. And what I'm trying to point out is that it's shooters who are balking at seeing this down. Sure, it can be - but nobody with a say in the matter is even discussing it.

What good is promoting the shooting sports with $280 million in the bank but no guns in the rack? The CMP has a continuous history of selling used military firearms to promote marksmanship, not Remington Nylon 66's. It might no be their word for word mission statement, but it is their practice and has been since before my fathers time.

No guns, no CMP. They can hold a match now and again, some might buy some cheap ammo, but the bulk of the money they banked was surplus US firearms for sale to the public. I don't see that heritage lasting, my grandchildren aren't likely to even hear about it except in history books.

 

[TheVision]

The CMP has a continuous history of selling used military firearms to promote marksmanship ...

As has been said before, the rifle sales are a means to an end to fund the promotion of youth sports shooting. "No one" is competing with a well-worn surplus rifle.

not Remington Nylon 66's.

...but Daisy air rifles, Winchester 52Ds, Remington 40Xs, Kimber 82Gs, and a whole host of .22LR competitive rifles.

It might no be their word for word mission statement, but it is their practice and has been since before my fathers time.

Your father wasn't likely born in 1996; the predecessor to the CMP was ultimately taxpayer funded (no profit and loss), so they could operate on a "one gun per lifetime" model ... which, by the way, you had to have competed to even qualify for. (As an aside, given the political climate at the time, it was likely that "Captain Crunch" would have devoured those remaining surplus arms.)

They can hold a match now and again

Like the National Matches, which they're required by law to hold.

 

[Jim Watson]

There is a separate program that furnishes military surplus to police departments.
I saw two 1911s that came to a department in my area. One was an excellent Remington Rand, the other was a mixmaster refurb in fresh Parkerizing with new or as new barrel. The RR would be a "collector's item" in anybody's book, the refurb, straight from the government, would be nothing to sneeze at.
Unfortunately, there is only one enthusiast on the force and he carries a "semi custom" commercial gun. He said the surplus would probably be returned, they do not have a use for them.
If CMP can deliver guns like those, they will no doubt be auctioned at high prices.

 

[Atla]

I know I've talked about this in another thread, but very few gives a hoot about M16A1's as part kits or complete.

Why bother when we can buy new make AR's for ~$400 now?

As for the M14's, bring what few Clinton didn't destroy on back!

Hopefully with Haji kills notched in the stocks from the sandbox. DIBS on a USMC issued one.

I'd also like to see some full auto Thompsons and Winchester Model 1897 'Trench Shotguns' brought out of inventory. Surely some of those are still laying about?

 

[Carl N. Brown]

Tirod Post #7 mentions altering M16 lower to nolonger accept full auto. They do that with vz58 select fire military surplus in Czech Republic and the altered vz58 is harder to convert to full auto are select fire than a standard AR-15. But, ATF has the rule: once a machinegun receiver always a machinegun. The M16 lower could be altered so it would be less convertible than an AR-15, but it would still be an M16.

Seeing some of the prices on semi-auto AR lowers and firecontrol groups, it would probably be cheaper to transfer an M16 upper, buttstock, buffer tube assembly to a new semi-auto lower than alter an M16 lower.

 

[Panzerschwein]

I wish they could just put them all on the market and send them to places like AIM surplus, J&G Sales, etc.

Now the CMP gets to piecemeal them out as they please, pandering to the collectors, keeping the market value out of the reach of the everyman where a 1911 could be put to actual use instead of being holed up in some geezer collector's safe.

Yeah, I'm not a fan of the CMP. I know for some reason I'm supposed to love them, but I'm not really sure why.

Oh well, lots of good milsurp pistols out there with much less politics and hassle attached.

 

[Atla]

No one seems excited about the Beretta M9's that could come potentially through CMP.

 

[Tirod]

The entire point of the ATF's view that once a machine gun always a machine gun is control. Having them come off the books and then back on would be more than difficult to track.

Overall it's politics, tho, not the gun itself, and as long as the shooting public keeps repeating "once a machine gun" then they are the ones propping up the situation and the ATF gets the benefit. Let's not forget that at one time a drop in auto sear would make a semi auto AR15 fire full auto and I am more than aware of many State Troopers who had their trunk guns in the '80s and '90's so equipped - and for some reason the ATF determined the auto sear was the "firearm" for control purposes. They didn't say the resulting combination made that lower an MG, which buy logical progression means that even if the sear is removed, those semi auto lowers should have been MG's - permanently. Didn't happen, tho, did it? ATF has no control so they regulate what they can.

It's ALL about control.

As for sniping the view that the CMP will close it's doors if no firearms are being sold, we have already seen one attempt by an administration to do that - and they were. It's why we now have the organization in the form we do presently. Another thing done? To scrap as many 1911's as possible, leaving 100,000 out of the 4.5 MILLION manufactured left. They were ground up by a concern on the east coast under the Clinton regime, removing a source of income that cannot be restored.

If the CMP has no more guns to sell, then how do they keep in the public's eye and who will support them next time? We very well could have an administration in 11 years who can strike while the iron is hot, dismantle the organization as unneeded. THEY TRIED IT BEFORE. The purpose was to kill off the introduction of marksmanship with .22's to children and get out of promoting something they consider anathema. It almost succeeded. .22 Marksmanship wasn't good enough on it's own to prevent it, it was the target they were aiming at to kill off.

Saying it will be good enough in the future ignores the previous attempt and is sticking our heads in the sand. If the CMP want's to continue it's mission it has to sell guns to adults who want them - and a previously issued Gov't M16 - even rendered permanently semi auto - can and will sell. Above new gun market pricing, entirely due to collectors. It's exactly how the 1911's will sell and saying it won't is ignoring that fact.

Once again it's American shooters standing in the way by pushing for the CMP to fold up and go away. We avoided the bullet last time, the next may be fatal.

 

[RPRNY]

The GOP in the Senate can't even get to a vote on Obamacare replacement after 8 years of decrying it as the worst thing ever. So don't hold your breath...

 

[TheVision]

If the CMP want's to continue it's mission it has to sell guns to adults who want them - and a previously issued Gov't M16 - even rendered permanently semi auto - can and will sell.

The CMP is not a gun store. Warehousing of guns costs money. Personnel to move that inventory costs money. They do not want to be in that business. It is orthogonal to their mission statement.

 

[stchman]

At $1100 for an old 1911, they can keep them. I can get a REALLY nice 1911 for $1100, especially on the used market.

 

[Panzerschwein]

At $1100 for an old 1911, they can keep them. I can get a REALLY nice 1911 for $1100, especially on the used market.

They wouldn't be $1100 if they just put them out on the open market instead of giving them to the holy righteous red blooded CMP.

 

[CoalTrain49]

They wouldn't be $1100 if they just put them out on the open market instead of giving them to the holy righteous red blooded CMP.

I'm not sure that's accurate.

There were about 2500 Colt M45 rail guns sold on GB for around $1500. Those came from the USMC as defective and sent back to Colt. Instead of refinishing those guns Colt sold them to a dealer. Some of those guns looked like they had been dragged behind a Humvee for a week. Some buyers posted pictures of what they got. Some were full of sand and decorated with magic markers. I think the original sale was over in a few days. Collectors and dealers couldn't buy them fast enough.

You could buy a new one (without the USMC slide) for around $1500. I've seen flippers get $3000 for those on GB. Go figure. The fact that these CMP pistols were in service and coming directly from the Army is what people are buying, not condition. They don't care what the condition is. Given that these USMC M45's are selling for 100% over new that would make a CMP gun worth at least $1100.

 

[reddog81]

They wouldn't be $1100 if they just put them out on the open market instead of giving them to the holy righteous red blooded CMP.

Yeah, they'd probably be a couple hundred more. Have you ever looked at the prices AIM, classicfirearms, J&G charges for M1 carbines, 1903's, Lugers, or any other desirable collectible? Sure they have cheap Makrov's, CZ's and Star's but that's easy to do. They charge $500 for a SKS, $1,000 for a 1903a3, $1,300 for a Garand. The cheapest place to get a Garand for at least the last 5 years has been the CMP.

The CMP 1911's will be showing up on gunbroker an at gun shows with a mark up within a week of selling through the CMP.

 

[CoalTrain49]

The CMP 1911's will be showing up on gunbroker an at gun shows with a mark up within a week of selling through the CMP.

Well, the flippers have to have something to flip.

 

[maxxhavoc]

Yeah, they'd probably be a couple hundred more. Have you ever looked at the prices AIM, classicfirearms, J&G charges for M1 carbines, 1903's, Lugers, or any other desirable collectible? Sure they have cheap Makrov's, CZ's and Star's but that's easy to do. They charge $500 for a SKS, $1,000 for a 1903a3, $1,300 for a Garand. The cheapest place to get a Garand for at least the last 5 years has been the CMP.

The CMP 1911's will be showing up on gunbroker an at gun shows with a mark up within a week of selling through the CMP.

Exactly. I haven't figured out why folks are anti-CMP. I got an M1 Carbine from them luck-of-the-draw for $750. Classic is selling knock-offs of them for $960, and recently closed out a collection of originals that priced around $1300 for what I ended up with.

I guarantee that whatever price the CMP sells the 1911s for (if it happens), that people will flip them for at least 150% of what they paid. The only value CMP guns have is collector value...you will ALWAYS be able to get better new "shooter" production guns for cheaper.

-My PSA AR-10 does everything my Garand does, and better. (except the "ping") Ar-10 is cheaper.
-An AR-15 outclasses an M1 Carbine on reliability, accuracy, and terminal effect. AR is cheaper.
-A new RIA 1911 (or Ruger, or Shield for that matter) will be more reliable and accurate than a shot-out 60-year-old .45. New gun is cheaper.

CMP guns only have value to collectors. If they sold them on the open market, they would command a much higher value than the CMP sells them for....but only to collectors. If you don't have pride in ownership of a gun that has been there, done that in service to our country, the CMP guns are not your cup of tea.