Cocked & Locked?

[ChopperKen]

Howdy All,
I'm new here and new to automatics. So I have a few ??
I'm in the market for a new weapon for CCW use.
As my Dan Wesson 357 is too bulky for comfort I decided to go auto after all these years.
I've been looking at the Springfield V-10 SA, and the ParaOrd, Para Carry
DOA.
I like the feel of the Springfield but am wondering about the safty of carrying cocked & locked as opposed to the Doa.
Any help or advice for a novice?
Thanks, Ken

 

[WT]

You might want to do a search on this. There are over 500 threads dealing with "cocked and locked" carry.

 

[warrior23]

If you have a Dan Wesson then go Dan Wesson again they have a handful of 1911 style 45,40,9mm their making now,and its the same quality if not better than their wheelguns.

 

[Edward429451]

This thread again?

I was uneasy with C&L for a week or so when I got my GM 20 yrs ago. I put a primed empty case in the chamber and C&L'd it and carried it around the house for awhile until I became comfortable with it. In the 20 yrs I've carried it C&L (in a good holster which covered the triggerguard) I have found that the safety disengaged itself 3 times inadvertantly, the last time being just last week. Do I think it's dangerous? Of course, it's a gun. Do I think it's safe? Yes I do or I wouldn't do it. I am the primary safety of that gun. The thumb safety is a redundant safety in my mind. I check it often.

Never trust anything more mechanical than a knife & fork, cause when you do it'll let you down. IOW, don't trust the gun to keep you safe, you keep the gun safe.

Do a search for cocked and locked and you'll find a slew of info on how to test your safeties properly. Add username '1911 Tuner' to the search and read his stuff. He gets real specific about how the parts and safeties work and testing them. He is 'the man' when it comes to 1911's.

Oh BTW, welcome to the forum!

 

[CAPTAIN MIKE]

..KEN, THE RESEARCH WILL SHOW...

That your Condition One firearm has three safeties: The first is the grip safety, the second is the thumb safety (which I check several times a day as a matter of habit), and the third is the firearm bearer (you).

Like you I had a concern about this. Like others, I overcame it once I realized the gun was "designed" that way.

The other alternative is to carry something like a Smith & Wesson SW99 in .45 caliber, which allows you to have a round in the chamber ready for self-defense but you can "de-cock" the sidearm so that you don't have to go around Cocked & Locked if that still troubles you.

I agree about doing the search on the web and about 1911 Tuner.

Now, be safe, and get some IDPA & USPSA experience under your belt and make plans to visit Front Sight in Nevada (www.frontsight.com).

All the Very Best & Welcome Aboard !!

 

[ChopperKen]

Thanks Guys

I did a search and have read a few things about carrying a 1911 cocked & locked since WT sugested it ...
Now I have made up my mind...
I'm gonna have to go with the Springfield Ultra Compact V-10, Bi-Tone
It felt so good in my hand the first time I picked it up but I had to check a few things about it and carrying it before giving in to Lust....
Warrior23, I checked out the Dan's, None of them felt right to me...
I love my 357 and am pretty good with it (hunting& target use) but brand loyalty is only for my truck and my Harley
Thanks for the help Guys.
Ken

 

[NevadaPistolero]

1911s were made to carried cocked and locked...its the only way. Its as safe as any other weapon. Internal safeties wont let the gun fire untill the safe lever is down and the grip safety depressed and the trigger pulled.

 

[Treylis]

I carry cocked and locked. Completely at ease with it.

A decent holster will do you a world of good insofar as making you comfortable. If you're planning on shoving it down your pants Mexican-style, of course, then I'd probably recommend condition 3... or just buying a damned holster. ;-)

 

[Stasher1]

Warrior23, I checked out the Dan's, None of them felt right to me...

Dan Wesson 1911's are kinda hit or miss when it comes to slide/frame fit and trigger pull. You'd really need to look at several before you make up your mind.

I've got a DW PM7-S on layaway right now. Of all the DW's they had in the local shop, it had the best slide/frame fit, best trigger, and best overall fit and finish. It's nicer than my Kimber Stainless Pro Carry II in almost every way...and about $150 cheaper.

 

[BluesBear]

As much as I love 1911 style pistols. I would NEVER reccomend a compact 1911 as a first automatic for ANYONE.

 

[1911Tuner]

Safe?

First off, Edward and Captain Mike...thanks for the kudos, guys! I ain't
the man, but I got a few tricks up my sleeve.

Mike said:

That your Condition One firearm has three safeties: The first is the grip safety, the second is the thumb safety (which I check several times a day as a matter of habit), and the third is the firearm bearer (you).
-------------------------------------

There's another one. The half-cock. It's a backup to the other two
mechanical safeties in that it will positively stop the hammer if parts
break, assuming that the trigger hasn't been pulled. The most important one is you. Never completely trust any mechanical device is good thinkin', but the 1911 pistol would have to break several parts at the same time to discharge from cocked and locked. Extra peace of mind is available in the form of a strap imposed between hammer and slide if you feel better about it. I don't feel a need for a strap, even with a pre-Series 80, but some feel better with one. All this assumes that the gun is mechanically sound and all safety mechanisms are in good repair. The very best advice that I can offer is to handle the pistol as if it were cocked and UN-locked. It's not
a toy and it's NOT your friend. That thing is as dangerous as a rattlesnake
and should be regarded as hostile at all times. Proceed accordingly.

Bottom line is epitomized by a quote that I've stolen from another man,
name unknown: (Russian accent deleted for clarity)

"It's NOT safe. It's a GUN!"



Cheers!
Tuner

 

[Majic]

Chopper I suggest that you also research the short barreled 1911s. You will find alot of comments on them too.

 

[stans]

As my Dan Wesson 357 is too bulky for comfort

Have you tried a 2-1/2 inch barrel and some compact stocks? I thought that a compact 1911 or Glock would be more concealable than my S&W 640-1, but in comparing them side by side, I find that a short barreled revolver is frequently small than most semi-auto pistols. Many compact 1911's (barrels of less than 4-1/4 inches) do have problems with reliability. They can usually be made reliable, but it can sometimes be a challenge.

 

[ChopperKen]

Blues Bear,
Why would that be? I've shot many diffrent handguns that my friends own.
Including 2 compact 45's ( 1 paraord & 1 S&W)and enjoyed all of them...
They didn't seem to be any worse than any other weapon, just smaller
with a bigger kick and louder bang.( I do like a gun with kick)
My favorite was my friend Jeff's Sig in 357...
But for myself I've fell for the Springfield V-10, I like the Houge(sp)grips
and feel that the porting will help with the muzzel rise to help get back on target faster
I dont have any fear about carrying in cond 1 now that I know what it is(remember I am a wheelgun person so I have not learned auto vernicular)
As for holsters I wear leather vests and jackets about 90% of the time and they should work well for a shoulder rig with a compact auto..
If not dressed as usall, a inside the waistband holster at 2:00 with the 1/2 cock on (save the jewels )

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I've carried C&L for more than 40 years, and designed a holster especially for C&L carry -- I sometimes call it my "4 Safety Holster."

My IWB has high leather, completely protecting the butt of the gun from contacting the skin (when wearing under a T-shirt.) On this leather, I mount a "button" or leather cam, which prevents the safety from disengaging accidentally. If you are wearing the holster, and try to holster a cocked and UNlocked pistol, the button forces the safety into the safe position.

You can find directions to make my practical IWB at http://www.handloads.com/

 

[Tactical]

I sometimes carry my 1911 cocked and locked however the majority of the time I carry it with a round in the chamber and the hammer down. I have always thought that if I were in a situation that required me to pull my weapon, it is as easy to pull the hammer back as it is to throw the safety lever.

Has there ever been a person in a situation where it was necessary to have his weapon cocked and locked and it would have caused this person to loose a particular gun fight because it was not?

 

[Treylis]

Tactical:

I've heard from numerous people that condition 2 carry is somewhat... dangerous.

Personally, I would prefer not to lower the hammer on a chambered round myself, either.

 

[Majic]

You can disengage the safety with the hand in firing position, but you can't cock the hammer one handed without shifting your grip. If your 1911 doesn't have some form of firing pin block it is also capable of firing if something hits the hammer hard enough in condition 2.

 

[1911Tuner]

Hammerin' it

Lowering the hammer on a hot chamber is a risky thing to do. Be very
careful. Your downstairs neighbors and the dog will appreciate it. A
good idea might be a two-foot thick stack of newspapers to contain an
errant discharge. See...there's this guy named Murphy.

Hitting the hammer spur on a hammer-down 1911 won't fire it. The
firing pin is an inertia type. The pin is shorter than the channel, and
must be driven forward in order to hit the primer. In Condition 2, you
can beat on the hammer until it breaks, and the pin won't bust the cap.

Dropping the pistol muzzle down on a hard surface from a height of about 10 or 12 feet may fire it, but you'd probably have to do it a few times to
get the muzzle dead perpendicular on the concrete. This assumes a
proper firing pin spring...and why would we walk around with a bad spring?
They're less than 2 bucks each from Brownells...A fresh spring about every
5,000 rounds is cheap insurance.

To steal a quote about safety and guns...

"It's a GUN! It's NOT safe!

Cheers!
Tuner

 

[Edward429451]

Not too far OT, but Tuner, What's the difference between the series 80 and pre-80 half cock notches in the hammer. I remember hearing something to the effect that the series 80 notch is not a true half cock notch...I'm grey on that. Is it not, why not, and what is it's purpose if not to catch the hammer?

 

[1911Tuner]

80 Half Cock

Howdy Edward,

The Series 80 Colt, and I understand the newer Springfields have gone to
a half-cock shelf, rather than a true notch. The shelf doesn't stop the
hammer as far back as the notch, and a pull on the trigger will let the
hammer fall, but not far enough to provide enough momentum to fire
the gun. The shelf will also stop the hammer fall, just like the notch.
The two advantages of the shelf are:
It's more gentle on the sear in the event of a followdown to half cock.
It's cheaper to make the hammer without the true notch. One less machining operation.

The notch positively captures the sear, and won't allow the hammer to fall
when the trigger is pulled, unless the trigger is pulled hard enough to break something. At that point, the trigger stirrup will probably be warped into unserviceability.

Take'er easy!

Tuner

 

[Vern Humphrey]

You are correct in that the Series 80 notch is not a true halfcock notch. But like that of earlier M1911s, it serves as an intercepting safety -- that is, if the hammer slips while cocking or uncocking, the halfcock notch MAY catch it. The Series 80 design is a little less likely to damage the sear in that event.

 

[BluesBear]

1911 Tuner, Back in the early 1980 while packing up at the Muncie Indiana Gun Show, I was talking to another dealer who was also a LEO. He has just holstered his MkIV Series 70 Government in an original Jackass shoulder rig.
While we were chatting it escaped. I watched as it slide out from under his arm, traveled past his waist and as it slid down the outside of his left leg it rotated to muzzle down position which is where it was when it reached the floor and went
BANG !

Luckily there were only 5 or 6 people left in the hall. We looked for over an hour but none of us could find a single bit of that .45 Silvertip. There was a small sooty smear on the edge of his boot sole and a little silver smear on the concrete floor. The only damage to the gun was a small peen on the edge of the recoil spring plug.

Turns out that the female portion of the thumbsnap was oversize and wouldn't snap tightly.

 

[dav]

BluesBear wrote:
As much as I love 1911 style pistols. I would NEVER reccomend a compact 1911 as a first automatic for ANYONE.

Just out of curiousity, why?

Is it their infamous unreliability compared to full size? Or the shorter sight radius? Smaller grip? Need for firm wrist?

My first handgun was/is a Kimber Compact CDP II. I'm glad I got it, and enjoy it immensely. Yes, it was not 100% reliable when new. This must be taken into consideration. But it is, now. I still don't think I made a mistake. Did I?

 

[BluesBear]

When you shorten the barrel of a .45 calibre 1911 type pistol, reliability becomes a real issue. Everything has to be just right for reliable functioning. There's just very little room for error.

The recoil springs also need more attention. Limp wristing becomes more of an issue.

I have never found anyone who had trouble shooting Government size or Commander size 1911s if they wanted to shoot them. Handling characteristics are just a little different on the compacts.

There are many nice examples of compact 1911s on the market. Some work well and some don't. You pays yer money and takes yer chance.

I am not meaning to slam any compact 1911 or anyone who owns one.
I just wouldn't advise it as a first semi-auto. Just as I wouldn't advise a uberlightweight magnum as a first revolver or a Ruger #1 in .458 as a first rifle.

A determined and dedicated shooter will do just fine with any gun they choose. All it takes is the time and desire to master it.