Cold Hammer forged worth the extra $$?

[Plinkin' Logs]

Well I was looking for an upper for my Pre-sb281 (Maryland law) AR-15. I was looking at BCM barrels, and was trying to decide if the extra $85 dollars is worth it for a barrel that is CHF.

Now I know that people say a CHF barrel will last longer, but if the barrel is already chrome lined then it would stand to reason once the chrome lining is eroded enough that the bare steel is showing then it would already be "shot out" and need to be replaced, since chrome lined barrels are over-bored to accommodate chrome lining.

Also our military doesn't even use CHF barrels on the M4s. Is this just a bit of marketing hype? In full disclosure I own one rifle that is CHF (Zastava M77), but I didn't pick it because it was, only because thats the only way Zastava makes barrels.

 

[NWcityguy2]

If there is anything conclusive about CHFing being better for a semi-auto AR, I haven't seen it. I definitely wouldn't pay $85 more for a BCM BFH barrel. The price of those barrels is more about who is selling them than anything they have been demonstrated to do.

 

[Jackal]

Honestly, I've never been able to tell a difference. There are barrels made by several methods that can punch tiny groups. As for lasting longer, by the time your put around $3500-$4500 in ammo through your rifle and your barrel wears out, I doubt it really matters...

The majority of "expert advice" on this matter comes mostly from keyboard commando's that love nothing more than abbreviations (CHF, BCG, CH, HPT, MPI, OCD).

 

[C-grunt]

From what I've read hammer forging makes a more consistent barrel. But that doesn't mean a button rifled barrel is bad.

In my opinion the BCM BFH barrels are superior to their non BFH barrels. However not enough for me to spend the extra money. I'm going to be buying one of their ELW barrels in the near future.

 

[taliv]

i've often wondered the same thing. the price difference isn't enough for me to lose sleep over. but it sure would be nice to see some quality reputable 3rd party testing

 

[Plinkin' Logs]

That is the part I don't understand. Sure in an non-chrome barrel, cold hammer forged might last longer. But with a chrome-lined barrel only the chrome is touching the gases and bullet as it exists the barrel. Chrome lining is harder then the hardest Hammer forged barrel.

The barrels are over-bored before they are chrome lined, so that if the chrome has been worn away, the steel wouldn't be grabbing the bullet, and is shot out and needs to be replaced.

 

[NWcityguy2]

Once the throat is gone, the barrel is gone. There is no avoiding that fact.

 

[henschman]

When I bought my BCM LW middy upper, I didn't opt for the CHF. Their button rifled barrels are already made with very high quality, and I didn't expect any tangible benefit out of it. It has been great so far... I get consistent 2 MOA from field positions with M193, and it has been completely reliable with some fairly rough use. I don't regret not going with CHF at all.

That said, my buddy's PSA 20" CHF rifle is a really great shooter. Seeing how the PSA CHFs (made by FN) are often available cheaper than even the button rifled BCMs, that is definitely a viable option. I am strongly considering one of their 12" CHfs as as a suppressor host very soon. With those the main draw isn't that they're CHF -- it's that you're getting a very high quality barrel from a highly reputable source that has a great track record, for a great price.

 

[Sav .250]

A lot of stuff is out there It`s up to you to figure out the merits.

 

[Inebriated]

I bought the CHF from BCM. I've been happy. The price difference doesn't really matter that much, and the non-CHF was out of stock.

If I were buying again, I probably would still buy CHF.... Kind of a "why not" sort of thing.

 

[rbernie]

That is the part I don't understand. Sure in an non-chrome barrel, cold hammer forged might last longer. But with a chrome-lined barrel only the chrome is touching the gases and bullet as it exists the barrel.

As I understand things, CHF makes the steel structures 'different' than does rolled blanks that are drilled and rifled. Reportedly, the CHF barrels have less stress risers in them and display fewer heat related tendencies to twist or warp. I don't know how much I believe that; it's been proven than a carefully made barrel that's drilled and rifled can certainly be quite accurate indeed. I suspect that any benefit is in that it's simply cheaper to make a decent CHF barrel than to make a decent drilled-and-rifled-barrel, meaning that a barrel at a given price point will be more consistent if its CHF.

 

[readyeddy]

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2013/08/foghorn/a-look-inside-fnms-south-carolina-barrel-shop/

Interesting article about FNM's barrel production and hammer forging. They say all barrels are hammer forged by default, even the button rifled barrels. Not sure what this means exactly.

 

[rbernie]

All barrels come from steel that, at some point, was almost certainly 'hammer forged' (usually done hot, from what I know) or at least hot rolled into raw steel stock at the plant. CHF relative to gun barrels means 'cold' steel is hammered against a mandrel to form the hollow cylinder that we call a gun barrel, complete with chamber and rifling, just like in the FNH article. Here's another:

https://danieldefense.com/cold-hamm...-56mm-s2w-mid-length-chf-barrel-stripped.html

The Cold Hammer Forging of barrels is accomplished through intense hydraulic pressure applied at opposing angles by carbide steel hammers. During the hammering process, a mandrel is inserted into the bore while the carbide steel hammers shape the barrel around the mandrel creating the chamber, the lands, and the grooves. In addition to the aforementioned benefits, the Cold Hammer Forging process creates a defect free bore and the most consistent chamber possible.

Like all processes, the wear on the tooling (mandrel, in this example) is the single biggest variable in quality.

 

[MistWolf]

A cold hammer forged barrel is not worth the extra cost. CHF was developed by the Germans to make a lot of barrels rapidly for less cost per unit than other manufacturing methods. In fact, the CHF process is one reason Remington was able to make bolt action rifles economically in the post war years.

Chroming the chamber and bore does help barrel life, but it's no better than the underlying material. A chromed barrel made of poor quality steel will still wear faster than a barrel made of good quality steel

 

[Zerodefect]

Is it a better barrel? Yes. Everyone would be selling CHF barrels if they could.

Is it a better choice? I don't know, but it's nice to have the option.

If you're not spraying tons of ammo, look at the SS410 barrel option. It's better than both, just won't last as long.

 

[SpentCasing]

I prefer them.

Heres a quote from Monty Leclair over at Weapon Evolution. For those that dont know he is the owner of Centurion Arms and an active duty SEAL. ie: the definition of SME vs. some keyboard commando

I was given a link so I figured I’d come over and respond.Looks like you guys pretty much have the concept. The bore gets slightly smaller as it moves to the muzzle end of the barrel.I did not come up with the concept and it is not new. So why have you not seen taper bores in the AR platform before?? Probably because using hammer forged barrels is a fairly new thing in the AR rifles. Taper bore is something that is only realistically done by the hammer forging process. The mandrel that is used to put the rifling in the barrel is slightly tapered and this leave the tapered dimension in the barrels as the forging machine beats the blank around the mandrel. So what does it offer you? Taper bore gives you a slight boost in velocity over a non-taper bore barrel and it help negate any potential accuracy issues caused by chroming the bore since it is not always a consistent thickness.Taper bore does not extend the life of the barrel our barrels last longer because they are hammer forged and made from a different spec material that was engineered for machine guns. Hammer forging work hardens the material and the chrome is thicker than a normal barrel. The barrel steel is the same used on the MAG58, 240, M249, MK46, and MK48 machine guns it is also the same barrel material and process used on the 1/2moa sniper rifles FN won the FBI contract with and that are still in service. The FN SPR sniper rifles use hammer forged hard chrome lined taper bore barrels to get ½ moa accuracy and this is the same barrel specs and processes I have done to my barrels. So who else uses this?Obviously FN, who has the time, money, and resources to do the research to find this type of barrel steel and proof out this type of process and specs. FN hands down manufactures the best machine guns in the world and there isn’t even a close second in this field there isn’t even any two companies you can combine that has as much institutional knowledge as they do in making beltfed machine guns. HK also taper bores their hammer forged barrels for all their rifles.So why do I use it?Well I didn’t really think much about hammer forging and taper bore before I was sent to work doing combat systems development and operational testing for SOCOM. There I worked on several weapons programs one that used these barrels on one of the rifles we were testing. I got to observes millions of dollars worth of R&D and testing that was done and got to see hundreds of thousands of rounds run through these weapons and got to see firsthand that these barrels did indeed last allot longer and on a whole shoot better than standard button rifled barrels that were chrome lined. The difference was significant and I wondered why the hell no one made these barrels for the M4/AR rifles so I figured I would bring them to market myself. I have over 20 years of service and have shot out plenty of M4’s in my time and can with full confidence say this is a improvement I’ve seen it first hand.ThanksMontynd here is more.

 

[SpentCasing]

A cold hammer forged barrel is not worth the extra cost. CHF was developed by the Germans to make a lot of barrels rapidly for less cost per unit than other manufacturing methods. In fact, the CHF process is one reason Remington was able to make bolt action rifles economically in the post war years.

I really wish this mfg cost BS would quit being repeated over and over in these discussions. Its only ever brought up to imply that cheaper must mean inferior.

It's cheaper to manufacture a Camry than a Ferrarri...I can tell you that the Camry will be more reliable and last longer.

Extreme comparison pertaining to manufacturing costs aside, the point is, that relates nothing to durability.

 

[Harrington-Richardson]

"Wear through the chrome" is WAY beyond "shot out" for a barrel.

Cold hammer forge affects the way the barrel vibrates, the way forge stresses set up in a barrel. Get the molecules all lined up the way you want them, and then let the barrel cool (hot forge) and the molecules are going to re-align. Just like warp in steel being welded.

 

[Clint M]

Post #7 is spot on, throat goes= barrel gone. The chrome lining will hold up better than any steel barrel, so I'm not sure what is the best ? I know chrome lining is the best for long term rounds down the barrel. If your wanting accuracy look up how benchrest shooters choose their barrels, and even more so the process of chambering that barrel.

 

[Jackal]

Seriously though, from practical standpoint, CHF doesnt matter at all. By the time you dump 10,000-15,000rds through a barrel, I'm pretty sure your going to be buying a new barrel regardless of whether it was CHF or not.

 

[NWcityguy2]

SpentCasing, I think I speak for many experienced shooters when I say that name dropping only gets you so far in a conversation here. But since you brought up the quote, I have to wonder, was he specifically speaking about FN hammer forged barrels (which is what it sounds like), or all hammer forged barrels? Does that same info apply to Ruger or Remington? What about whoever supplies BCM their CHF barrels, which may or may not be FN?

 

[Clint M]

Agree with amount of rounds versus barrel wear and cost. I was testing some bullets years ago putting a significant round count on a Cooper in 223 rem. This is when Cooper first started getting a name for themselves I sent them an email asking cost of a new barrel however they were interested in the results Cooper told me if I would keep track of the results they would replace the barrel for free if it needed it. I never needed them to, and I know I had somewhere in the area of 5,000 rounds.

The above was in a bolt action back when components where cheap, and I never let the barrel get hot. Rapid fire and hot barrels is the death of a barrel.

 

[Ash]

Being an active duty SEAL is utterly meaningless regarding metallurgy. He might know what he's talking about regarding the subject - I won't argue against him - but being a SEAL is meaningless.

Of course, he also is selling a product. I have never met a man at a gun show selling a rifle that was not ultra accurate and ultra reliable. Of course his barrels are better than anyone else on the market.

 

[browningguy]

I don't think chf is the way to go. Stainless and cryo treatment, now that's worth the money.

 

[SpentCasing]

SpentCasing, I think I speak for many experienced shooters when I say that name dropping only gets you so far in a conversation here. But since you brought up the quote, I have to wonder, was he specifically speaking about FN hammer forged barrels (which is what it sounds like), or all hammer forged barrels? Does that same info apply to Ruger or Remington? What about whoever supplies BCM their CHF barrels, which may or may not be FN?

Ok. This always comes up in these threads too.

Basically if all you want is a report with a budget not short of a first world .gov ... It doesnt exist.

What you will find is a mountain of anecdotal evidence from SMEs who see and have more firsthand experience than most. And most of those top SME have businesses willing to sponsor them to offset their expenses in order to travel and share their knowledge.. Are they biased? Of course. Everyone has a bias. Are they flat-out shills? I believe not. But simply starting your own co. or being sponsored does not negate your knowledge as advertisement. If a well known SME is but a shill this industry is small enough that hed be called out in an instant. Yet all the top dogs seem to agree on a lot of points. CHF being more durable is one of many.

So my question is what do you want short of a .gov multi-year, multi million dollar study would convince you? If the answer is nothing... Well ok then. But Ill speak for "most of us in the know" and say the opinion and experience of a SME carries a ton of weight vs. Joe Blow. Good enough for a single individual? I dunno. Decide for yourself. But the evidence that there are advantages is fact and only someone willfully ignorant would choose to ignore it. Whether you will benefit from those advantages, therein lies the rub.

Now as for would xxx company's CHF machine be as good as yyy? IMO, yes. I would consider myself a SME in mfg and I would assume very few companies make the CHF machines. Ruger or Rem or FN aint designing it themselves. Theyre buying it from a certain company and having it installed. But Ill admit Im far from a SME on rifle bbl QC across the board.

Oh and FWIW, FN absolutely makes BCM''s CHF bbls. As well as Centurion, Spikes, PSA, Noveske, Rainier, etc. This is common knowledge.