Collectors: More/less desirable calibers for Winchester 1873?

[ImperatorGray]

Are some calibers of original Winchester 1873 more desirable than than others, or is it all the same?

I saw a .32 offered for about a thou (was missing the dust cover) and thought to myself that I'd rather have a .44 if I ever broke down and bought one, as it's the "cowboy's cartridge." But then I wondered if the volume of .44's produced might actually lower their value.

 

[Water-Man]

I like the 73 in .44-40. Check the Uberti.

 

[rcmodel]

I doubt that it makes a whole lot of difference anymore.

Shooters want 44-40's or 38-40's with a decent bore they can get ammo for.
Decent bore and working = good decent price.

Advanced collectors want the odd calibers they don't have yet.
And they have to be in top condition regardless.

And it's all about condition, condition, condition as far as price.
Top condition = Big bucks regardless of caliber.

BTW: This wasn't a question about Uberti's, I don't think anyway???

rc

 

[Water-Man]

Didn't say it was. Just another choice besides Winchester.

 

[StrawHat]

As I recall the Winchester Model 1873 was only offered in 4 cartridges, the 44 WCF, the 38 WCF, the 32 WCF and the 22 Short.

I believe the numbers built are reflected in the order of cartridges.

As for the Uberti, while it is an option, few collectors are interested in them. Shooters, maybe those who don't want to pay for an original would like one of the copies.

 

[Stony]

From what i have seen, the 44's seem to be more in demand.

 

[Speedo66]

Here's a nice one in .44-40. It has some scratches, but still a beautiful gun. This dealer has lots of them, you can check to see if the calibers seem to increase the price.

http://merzantiques.com/photo/fanta...3-3rd-model-pistol-grip-deluxe-rifle-in-44-40

 

[bannockburn]

Speedo66

That's way beyond nice; more like one truly gorgeous Winchester with some awe inspiring case color hardening to go along with the well preserved blued metal and wood finish. I also couldnt' help but notice the rather stratospheric bid price on this beautiful rifle as well. In this case I don't think the gun's caliber really matters all that much, especially in comparison to its condition.

 

[Jim K]

IMHO, those 1873s are very nice. Too nice?

Jim

 

[rcmodel]

I was thinking the same thing Jim.

I never saw a brand new one back then.
And neither has anyone else still alive.

But, I doubt those vibrant case colors came out of Winchester back then, and haven't faded, even a little by now!

rc

 

[Jim K]

I have seen a fair number of case colored Winchesters, Colts, and others and have not seen any with those very "vibrant" colors. The only guns I have seen that look like that are those restored by Turnbull.

But there are other indications of problems. How, for example, could the cover be scratched and marked, yet the adjacent receiver be perfect? How could the checkering in the wood be worn from handling yet, again, the receiver shows no wear at all. How could the wood show a nick, but the adjoining steel be totally unmarked? How could screw heads show no wear? It is possible that an old gun given good care was never taken apart, but it is something to think about.

If I were in the market to buy one of those Winchesters for the price of a Rolls Royce limo, I darned sure would want to examine it very closely (and contact Doug Turnbull and some of the other restorers).

Jim

 

[rcmodel]

Turnbull marks all his work on restorations so there can be no mistaking it.

Lots of others with ulterior motives don't.

But they aren't smart or good enough to do the total package right like Turnbull's shop is.

I'm not calling Shenanigan's on that one exactly.

But several things just don't smell right about it as you mentioned.

rc

 

[Jim Watson]

Several years ago, a Turnbullized Marlin got a prestigious collectors' organization award as a pristine original. Reportedly he "happened to notice it" and pointed out it had been through his shop, so the award was withdrawn.
So where does he mark a gun that it got by a committee of advanced collectors?

 

[Jim K]

Turnbull keeps a record of all the guns they restore, and will respond to inquiries, but AFAIK there is no mark put on the guns. I had an 1860 Army done by them and I see no new marking on it. Am I missing something?

In most cases, "restorations" are done so poorly as to be obvious to even a minimally trained eye. But Turnbull and a few others do a good job. I specifically asked that the 1860 NOT be given a highly colored finish and mine is totally consistent with original guns.

One point worth noting. Properly restoring wood, especially checkering, is actually more difficult and expensive than working on the metal. For that reason, owners often remove the wood and send just the metal to the restorer. That results in what appears to be a pristine M1911, say, with worn grips or, in this case, stocks that look absolutely correct for a gun of that age, with metal that looks like it just left the factory. No way that happens, no matter how much care an owner took of the gun.

Jim

 

[Jim K]

Permit me to add a couple of thoughts.

If examining a "mint" gun and thinking about shelling out lots of shekels for it, a good investment is a 20x or even a 50x mini-microscope. What you want to look at is the markings and the serial numbers and what you are looking for is hand engraving. Most guns made in anything resembling mass production have the markings put on by metal stamps made by or for the factory. The use of individual letter stamps is uncommon except in prototypes, and should be at least a yellow flag.

Restorers often remove or blur markings in removing a worn or rusted finish, and recut them by hand engraving. So you want to look for markings with lines showing the multiple cuts typical of engraving, as well as crooked lines, uneven letters or numbers, the wrong fonts, etc.

And also note that law or no law, the removal/replacement/change of serial numbers is common in the faking game. Sure, such is illegal, but the fakers don't worry a lot about being caught. Generally, BATFE doesn't want to spend a lot of time investigating and prosecuting when the only damage done is to some rich collector's wallet.

Jim

 

[rcmodel]

Turnbull keeps a record of all the guns they restore, and will respond to inquiries, but AFAIK there is no mark put on the guns.

I thought sure I read somewhere (Rifle magazine I think) that they started stamping a very small DT proof mark in an inconspicuous place after that Marlin Award deal went south??

Could be wrong though?

rc

 

[Jim Watson]

I don't know if they do, but they ought to.
There are a lot of people out there with more money than expertise and fakes abound. I was told by one speculator that they should study up more. Caveat Emptor.

And also note that law or no law, the removal/replacement/change of serial numbers is common in the faking game.

The short lived TV show about Rock Island Auctions showed them getting caught by a fake Winchester 1 of 1000... until a real collector told them he had the same serial number.

 

[rcmodel]

Here is a real good read on fake guns.

http://www.nramuseum.org/gun-info-research/fake!.aspx

rc

 

[Speedo66]

The dealer guarantees it's all original. I don't know much about the world of high end gun collectibles or anything about this dealer's reputation.

Sure looks pretty though.

When I lived in NYC I used to go to the Metropolitan Museum of Art. In their Arms & armor collection they had some beautiful guns. Some which had been "enhanced" by Tiffany were made into works of art in themselves.

 

[hamp sandwich]

Per the OPs question, I've often wondered the same. I'm not in the market for another one, but I do have an original in 32. It's in very good condition, and is a family heirloom. It's always fascinated me, and through the years, I've heard so many variations on value. However, it's priceless to me. I just wonder where they sit with the average collector.

 

[Jim K]

Jim Supica's article is a good one, but I would like to add a bit on factory letters. Faked letters are common, but less common is the real letter with a fake gun.

Some time ago a faker, now deceased, used the factory letter system to make a bundle. Here's how. He would find out, for example, that Colt SAA #123456 was shipped to Wyatt Earp. He would go to his pile of junker SAA's, pull one out and using welding, brazing, filing, etc., alter the serial numbers to conform to #123456. He would then get a Colt letter, which would say, correctly, that #123456 was shipped to Wyatt Earp. He would then sell the gun and the letter to some wealthy collector, with a caution not to let the word get out because "jealous collectors will call it a fake." If the collector was cautious, he could get a Colt letter that would confirm that #123456 was indeed the famous lawman's gun.

Then our faker went back to the junk pile for another rattly old SAA.

Of course, altering serial numbers is illegal, but then so are a lot of other things that are less profitable.

Jim

 

[Bushpilot]

IMHO, those 1873s are very nice. Too nice?

http://merzantiques.com/photo/fantas...rifle-in-44-40

Yep, There is a lot that smells fishy here. The biggest problem is all the proof marks all over the barrel and receiver. Some American guns were proofed if sold overseas but these don't look right. Those look like they belong on a new Uberti...

I have an original 1873 3rd model made in about 1893 and the serial number is stamped lengthwise along the underside of the tang in a completely different script.

It looks like there are remnants of the coating applied to many currently imported case hardened guns still on the fore end cap.

The brass lifter looks correct but looks too aged to match the rest of the rifle.

I don't see any authentic looking Winchester marks and stamps on this rifle anywhere.

I'm no expert but I wouldn't touch this rifle with a ten foot pole.
----------------------------------------
As far as the OPs original question is concerned: Shooters and cowboy enthusiasts usually want 44-40s or 38-40s and they might carry a slight price premium, although price guides usually don't reflect any difference except for 22 rimfire. These rifles in general are getting old enough and sought after enough that getting anything that is functional and mostly original in any caliber at a price that isn't sky high is becoming quite a find. If I see a 1873 (or even a 1892) that is mostly original, appears functional and doesn't look too messed with for a reasonable price I'm usually interested regardless of caliber.

A lot of 73s are missing the dust cover which is easily replaceable. If the 32-20 that you're looking at is functional, has a shootable bore and nothing major has been obliviously altered or replaced it's probably a pretty good deal at a thousand.

 

[Jim K]

Here is the way some fakers operate. Let's say I buy on line a Luger with an inscription from Göring to Hitler, congratulating the Führer on his 60th birthday. After I send the money and get the gun, someone who actually passed History 101 tells me that Hitler never made it past 56. I write the seller, demanding my money back. I am told to send the gun back; I do so and get my money back. But the faker isn't going to remove the engraving or change his tactics. He is just going to stick the gun back in inventory and a couple of months later, it will show up again on his web site, to be sold to some other sucker.

Jim

 

[StrawHat]

Isn't Hitler's birth certificate stored with Barack Obama's ? If so, do we really know how old he was...

 

[Jim K]

Actually, we do. Hitler was born 20 April 1889. He was ten days past his 56th birthday when he chose to depart for other (and hopefully hotter) places.

Jim